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Old 11-25-2012, 06:17 PM   #1
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Default Control panel wiring help

Hello all,

I'm seeking some guidance on ordering and wiring my e-herms.

First, let me describe to you what my vision is. I'm looking to make a 2 PID, 2 pump e-herms controlled by "THE" control panel. I am using two 10 gallon round coolers for the HLT and MLT, and a 10 gallon SS pot for the boil kettle. I have no desire for 10 gallon batches at this point so this is it. My fiance and I are currently renting our home, so i'm not looking to mess with the circuit breaker of the house. Right now all I have is a 120v 15a circuit in the garage. I will continue to use propane for the boil. I really have 7 goals for the control panel.

1. The first PID to manage the 1500 watt heating element in the HLT.
2. The second PID should monitor the temperature of the wort coming out of the MLT during the mash re-circulation I would like the PID output to control the alarm/flashing buzzer if the temperature gets out of range.
3. Control pump 1 and pump 2 via push buttons
4. Be able to directly override the 1st PID to turn on/off the heating element with 2-way switch
5. Be able to turn on/off the alarm/buzzer direction with 2-way switch
6. Have indicator lights that tell me when there is power to the heating element and when the power is to the control panel.
7. Be able to turn on/off the power to the control panel by the Emergency stop button.

I have compiled and attached a list of all the items I think I need with prices. If you see anything missing or that isn't needed please let me know.

Thanks for any and all help.

Corey

File Type: pdf Control panel.pdf (192.9 KB, 97 views)
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:52 AM   #2
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Goal number 2 for my control panel is using the second PID as a glorified thermometer. Has anyone used a PID to simply monitor the wort temperatures as it comes out of the MLT and power an alarm/buzzer? Will an SSR be required to achieve this?. My understanding is that the electricity is DC coming right out of the PID and it's converted to AC at the SSR. Am I way out of line here?

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Old 11-26-2012, 10:35 AM   #3
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First - welcome to the world of e-brewing.


If you're installing a heating element in a plastic cooler, make sure to look into grounding - you don't want something to go south with the electrical and not have a clean ground path. There are discussions about grounding all over this board, so read up on that.

For goal #2 - I have a PID installed just to monitor temperature, though mine will be doing double duty as a timer (SWA-2451). Look at how Kal (www.theelectricbrewery) set his up - he uses one in the same way you discuss. One thing of note - the SSR does not convert (transform) power from DC to AC - the SSR is a switch that is controled by the DC current from the PID and opens/closes an AC switch to the element.

For goal #4 - Why have a switch to over-ride? The PIDs have an option to go to manual mode and you can put it at 100% duty cycle to be on. Then you don't have to worry about setting your PID but forgetting to flip the switch and screwing up your mash temperatures.

Some things I noticed - you don't have a main on/off switch. Using the EPO as your on/off switch isn't the best idea - it's for emergencies, not routine use. Maybe it's a systems controlls mindset, but normally you don't see people using EPOs as main power control.

For your terminal blocks you may want to consider the CDB6/2 from www.mouser.com - it has a center post for your feed and then multiple outputs to tie into - you can select how many.

It looks like you plan to run only one contactor, which for your small panel may not be a bad idea. The question is, do you want to put it as a main power on/off contactor (tied to your on/off switch), or do you want to put it as a mechanical disconnect for the heating element (SSRs leak some current, so even if the PID says they're "off", there's still some voltage in the wires).

It looks like you're on a good path. Keep drawing up your plan, keep reading what others have done and how they've tackled similar issues to you, and when you think you've got it all figured out, go over it again. I can't tell you how many things it seems get lost in the details and placing multiple orders sucks.

-Kevin

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Old 11-26-2012, 11:03 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsBrewery View Post
First - welcome to the world of e-brewing.


If you're installing a heating element in a plastic cooler, make sure to look into grounding - you don't want something to go south with the electrical and not have a clean ground path. There are discussions about grounding all over this board, so read up on that.

For goal #2 - I have a PID installed just to monitor temperature, though mine will be doing double duty as a timer (SWA-2451). Look at how Kal (www.theelectricbrewery) set his up - he uses one in the same way you discuss. One thing of note - the SSR does not convert (transform) power from DC to AC - the SSR is a switch that is controled by the DC current from the PID and opens/closes an AC switch to the element.

For goal #4 - Why have a switch to over-ride? The PIDs have an option to go to manual mode and you can put it at 100% duty cycle to be on. Then you don't have to worry about setting your PID but forgetting to flip the switch and screwing up your mash temperatures.

Some things I noticed - you don't have a main on/off switch. Using the EPO as your on/off switch isn't the best idea - it's for emergencies, not routine use. Maybe it's a systems controlls mindset, but normally you don't see people using EPOs as main power control.

For your terminal blocks you may want to consider the CDB6/2 from www.mouser.com - it has a center post for your feed and then multiple outputs to tie into - you can select how many.

It looks like you plan to run only one contactor, which for your small panel may not be a bad idea. The question is, do you want to put it as a main power on/off contactor (tied to your on/off switch), or do you want to put it as a mechanical disconnect for the heating element (SSRs leak some current, so even if the PID says they're "off", there's still some voltage in the wires).

It looks like you're on a good path. Keep drawing up your plan, keep reading what others have done and how they've tackled similar issues to you, and when you think you've got it all figured out, go over it again. I can't tell you how many things it seems get lost in the details and placing multiple orders sucks.

-Kevin
Thanks Kevin. That's all very helpful.

1. I will be sure to look into grounding as I do plan to mount the element in the base of a cooler. Much like "Pol's original HERMS".
2. I'll also look into that other PID. Kal's website is so helpful and i'll certainly review that section again. So you are suggesting getting 1- SYL 2352 and 1- SYL 2451? For the second PID will I still use an SSR? All I want is for it to control the the alarm light/buzzer if the temp gets out of range? And also thanks for the clarification on SSR DC/AC.
As for goal number 4 I wanted an on/off 2-way switch that could turn the heating element completely off when there was no water in the HLT and the PID was still on. My thoughts were this was important to prevent the element from burning up. Is this not the case?
Next, I was initially going to use the key on/off switch to power the control panel but then found out that it has an amperage that is too low. Using the EPO also seemed a little strange. Do you suggest a standard 2-button power switch for on/off to be wired for power to control panel?
Thanks for the mouser link that thing looks pretty sweet.
As for contactors I would rather get 2 if 2 is what is recommended. Whats an extra 24$ at this point and I have no idea which placement would be more advantageous over the other. I have hand sketched a wiring diagram by looking at many of PJ's previous ones. Unfortunately, I haven't found one that matches what I want to do. Mainly because i'm using 120v, only 1 element, and the second PID.
Thanks again for your help, i'm going to have plenty more questions as I go. Good advice for checking and re-checking the design. Will do!

Corey
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:05 PM   #5
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Corey,
Let's see if I can help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smittygouv30 View Post
2. I'll also look into that other PID. Kal's website is so helpful and i'll certainly review that section again. So you are suggesting getting 1- SYL 2352 and 1- SYL 2451?
You can use whatever you want. I'm using a SWA-2451 for my HLT to control the element there. I'm using a SWA-2451 for my MLT to monitor temperature only and not do anything else. I'm using a SYL-2352 to control my BK as I don't want a timer on that PID.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smittygouv30 View Post
For the second PID will I still use an SSR? All I want is for it to control the the alarm light/buzzer if the temp gets out of range? And also thanks for the clarification on SSR DC/AC.
The PID turns an SSR on and off to allow the SSR to power an element. If you don't have a heating element, you don't need an SSR. For my setup, I have two elements, two SSRs, and three PIDs. I think you're aming for one heating element, so you'd need one SSR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smittygouv30 View Post
As for goal number 4 I wanted an on/off 2-way switch that could turn the heating element completely off when there was no water in the HLT and the PID was still on. My thoughts were this was important to prevent the element from burning up. Is this not the case?
You're right - originally it sounded like you might want to be able to switch over to turn the element on 100% duty cycle with the switch - you just want to make sure the element is 100% off. You can use a dual-pole switch for that, as long as it's rated to the amps you need. I am using a contactor to do it for me as I don't need to worry about the full amp load going through my switch any more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smittygouv30 View Post
Next, I was initially going to use the key on/off switch to power the control panel but then found out that it has an amperage that is too low. Using the EPO also seemed a little strange. Do you suggest a standard 2-button power switch for on/off to be wired for power to control panel?
You CAN find a switch that's rated high enough to run your whole panel through. What most seem to do is run a contactor though, like with the elements. Simply put, a contactor is very similar to an SSR except it's mechanical - you provide a small charge to the coil (from your on/off switch) and it flips an internal switch in the contactor that allows your main power through. That's over simplified, so do a little research, but it's a way to make your system work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smittygouv30 View Post
As for contactors I would rather get 2 if 2 is what is recommended. Whats an extra 24$ at this point and I have no idea which placement would be more advantageous over the other.
Sounds like you have your answer there. You can install an on/off switch to control your main contactor to power up your panel, and the second contactor would control the power to the element (after the SSR, before the element) and be powered by your on/off switch for the element.

Now, you can do it the way you had before - don't let me push you to some sort of more complicated panel if that's not what you're looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smittygouv30 View Post
I have hand sketched a wiring diagram by looking at many of PJ's previous ones. Unfortunately, I haven't found one that matches what I want to do. Mainly because i'm using 120v, only 1 element, and the second PID.
When you narrow in on a more solid plan, do up some sketches and post them here. Folks will review it and provide input, and you may luck out and find someone even more helpful than you expect - P-J has jumped in an saved a lot of us a lot of headache in the past.

Good luck,
-Kevin
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsBrewery View Post
Corey,
Let's see if I can help...



You can use whatever you want. I'm using a SWA-2451 for my HLT to control the element there. I'm using a SWA-2451 for my MLT to monitor temperature only and not do anything else. I'm using a SYL-2352 to control my BK as I don't want a timer on that PID.



The PID turns an SSR on and off to allow the SSR to power an element. If you don't have a heating element, you don't need an SSR. For my setup, I have two elements, two SSRs, and three PIDs. I think you're aming for one heating element, so you'd need one SSR.



You're right - originally it sounded like you might want to be able to switch over to turn the element on 100% duty cycle with the switch - you just want to make sure the element is 100% off. You can use a dual-pole switch for that, as long as it's rated to the amps you need. I am using a contactor to do it for me as I don't need to worry about the full amp load going through my switch any more.



You CAN find a switch that's rated high enough to run your whole panel through. What most seem to do is run a contactor though, like with the elements. Simply put, a contactor is very similar to an SSR except it's mechanical - you provide a small charge to the coil (from your on/off switch) and it flips an internal switch in the contactor that allows your main power through. That's over simplified, so do a little research, but it's a way to make your system work.



Sounds like you have your answer there. You can install an on/off switch to control your main contactor to power up your panel, and the second contactor would control the power to the element (after the SSR, before the element) and be powered by your on/off switch for the element.

Now, you can do it the way you had before - don't let me push you to some sort of more complicated panel if that's not what you're looking for.



When you narrow in on a more solid plan, do up some sketches and post them here. Folks will review it and provide input, and you may luck out and find someone even more helpful than you expect - P-J has jumped in an saved a lot of us a lot of headache in the past.

Good luck,
-Kevin
Kevin,

Thanks again! You helped answer a lot of my questions. I'll go with 2 contactors. One will be used for the element via a 2-way switch, and the other for the key on/off switch. The one contactor will be controlled by the SSR and the other will be controlled "mechanically" via turning the key. Correct?

I looked back at Kal's build and it looks like he uses 3 of the SYL-2352's only and a separate timer. (http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/co...-part-1?page=2) Do you use the timer features from the SWA-2451s frequently? I don't want to get the 2352 and regret it later on and wish I would have gotten the 2451.

I posted a question on the other thread about fuses also. But do you have any information on where to get what I need for this? You mentioned a 2 amp fuse, instead of 2 1amp fuses? I believe it was in the BIAB e-herms thread they had fuse holders mounted in the wall of the enclosure. Unnecessary?

Thanks again,

Corey
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:51 PM   #7
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Corey,
The SSR does not control the contactor. The PID controlls the SSR, which then allows power to flow through one leg of your power line. That then goes through the contactor along with the second leg of your power line. The contactor is controlled by a switch you install (the 2-way you describe). So if your PID is off, or isn't telling the element to fire, then the SSR is off and no electricity is flowing (well, except for the random leakage, but let's ignore that for now.) So even if your contactor is turned on but the PID isn't telling the SSR to turn on, you get no power. If the switch to the contactor is off, then the coil is open and you get no power to the element, even if the SSR is switching on and off. You will only get power to the element if the PID tells the SSR to turn on AND you flip the switch to turn the contactor on. This allows you to have control while still letting the PID do its thing.

The main power in contactor is controlled by the keyed switch as you describe.

I haven't finished my build yet, so I can't tell you. I expect that I will use the timer function frequently as I don't think it's TOO hard to figure out. Some people don't like dealing with it and want a stand alone timer. My theory is that, in the same space as it takes to get 3 PIDs, I get 3 PIDs and 2 timers - that's a win in my book. Do some searching on the forum - there's a lot of discussion on the 2451s.

I got my fuse holders at Radio Shack. They have the inline type as well as the panel mount type you're referring to. Fuses are a good idea, I was just saying that you could have one fuse do the job of two if you changed where the power split to after the fuse instead of before.

-Kevin

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Old 11-27-2012, 04:50 PM   #8
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Kevin,
That is much clearer now. It is much easier to understand these wiring diagrams when I know what each thing is supposed to do. I had an idea what I needed to order based on these other diagrams but really had no idea what an SSR, heat sink, or contactor did. What do you do for a living? Do you make control panels for a living or something? I really appreciate you helping me out that's all.

I'm still undecided about what PIDs I want to get. I have this vision of my control panel set-up next to my brewing equipment with a mount or stand next to the control panel for my iPad. I'm waiting for the final version of Beer smith to be released for the iPad and I'd like to use that as the intra-brew session timer. It'll have the recipe already input-ed but of course won't be automated.

Thanks for the information on the fuses. I'll probably go with the mount ones but i'll see once I get everything order how tight my enclosure is.

Another question to make sure i'm understanding. The contactor for the heating element should be wired in after SSR and of course before the element?

The contactor for the main power should be wired in after the 2-way on/off key switch? When the key is turned to the on position this gives a "spark" to the contactor which then will allow electricity to flow to the terminal blocks.

And the fuse(s) should be wired in right after the terminal blocks? It looks like a 1 amp prior to the E-stop and a 2 amp prior to the PIDs?

I don't get the E-stop and the ohm resistor yet either. I need to do some research there as well.

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Old 11-27-2012, 05:07 PM   #9
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Corey,
No problem. Keep asking questions, we're all here to help and we were all noobs at some point. As for what I do... well, that's a secret.

You'll figure out the PIDs. My logic - if I never use the timer feature, I can still use it as a 'regular' PID. There's no loss in my book and the cost was mildly different.

Correct - the contactor goes after the SSR and before the element, as a final protection for yourself and your equipment to make sure the element doesn't fire unless you turn it on.

The contactor for the main power is wired directly to your main power input from the wall (the plug / receptacle should go straight to the contactor) and the COIL (the part that physically makes the contactor open or close) is wired to the switch. So when you turn on the switch, it energizes the coil and closes the contactor, letting the juice flow.

You're on the right path with the rest of the stuff. Keep reading, the answers are out there, along with answers to questions you didn't even know you needed to ask yet!

-Kevin

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Old 11-28-2012, 02:29 AM   #10
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Sweet, thanks again. I'll be putting some final plans together this weekend. I think I have a good starting point, but definitely a lot of questions left to be answered. Hopefully I can come up with a solid wiring diagram. Before I place my order. I have been searching all over this forum for something like I'm envisioning. No luck yet. Its certainly not because my idea is something thats too difficult in comparison to others. My guess is that it's rare because not many people are crazy enough to spend the time and money on a wussy 120v 2 PID single element e-herms. Call me crazy!

Corey

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