Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Electric Brewing > BCS user control panel question
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-11-2011, 03:11 AM   #21
bruin_ale
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Campbell, CA
Posts: 1,434
Liked 16 Times on 16 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio-Ed View Post
You said you don't want a manual step between switching from HLT to BK heating. So are you talking about trying to control this via the BCS?

I don't know how you can build an interlock / lockout without a physical selector switch.

In my panel, all the selector switches are on the low voltage "control" side of the SSR's.

Ed
Yeah, this would be BCS controlled...
HLT and BK select would be the signals from the BCS outputs.
I thought I described it ok, but here's a picture. I'm still not sure if it would work, but it seems like there should be a way to make sure both are kept off in the case that the BCS is trying to power them both.
xor_ssr.jpg  
__________________
bruin_ale is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-11-2011, 04:25 AM   #22
JonW
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JonW's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Huntington Beach ☼
Posts: 1,493
Liked 104 Times on 64 Posts
Likes Given: 43

Default

You could build your interlocks using relays on the BCS control side. That way even if the BCS is trying to command more then one SSR on, it won't be able to.

Also something to consider on the BCS processes - the higher level processes can override settings in the lower level processes. This could be handy in your situation.

Example:
Process 0 commands Out1 ON & Out2 OFF
Process 1 commands Out1 OFF & Out2 ON
If you were to have both Process 0 and Process 1 running at the same time, Process 1 will take precedence since it is the higher level process.

Manual mode however would allow you to turn both Out1 & Out2 on at the same time, so having relays to perform the interlock should be used.

__________________
Surf City Brewing (TM)

My Single Tier, 3 Pump, BCS-462, Brutus Build: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/sing...ed-rig-204705/
My customized BCS-462 controller web interface: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/hack...s-done-209388/
My 8 tap, 11 keg, upright Keezer build: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/upri...1-kegs-371438/
JonW is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-11-2011, 04:50 AM   #23
bruin_ale
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Campbell, CA
Posts: 1,434
Liked 16 Times on 16 Posts

Default

Thanks Jon,
Any suggestions on the interlock circuit? Since the ON/OFF coming from the BCS would be in PID mode it's going to switch too fast/often to use a mechanical relay, so I was thinking it'd have to be an SSR - other than the idea I posted earlier - I'm not sure how this would be done.

__________________
bruin_ale is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-11-2011, 05:47 AM   #24
JonW
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JonW's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Huntington Beach ☼
Posts: 1,493
Liked 104 Times on 64 Posts
Likes Given: 43

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruin_ale View Post
Thanks Jon,
Any suggestions on the interlock circuit? Since the ON/OFF coming from the BCS would be in PID mode it's going to switch too fast/often to use a mechanical relay, so I was thinking it'd have to be an SSR - other than the idea I posted earlier - I'm not sure how this would be done.
Since it's just the BK & HLT you need to switch between, it should be fairly easy. You can run the BCS BK & HLT SSR outputs through a DPDT relay to keep only one firing at a time. This method uses an additional output, but even in manual mode, it will keep you from firing both elements at the same time.

Assumptions:
Drive the HLT SSR on Out0
Drive the BK SSR on Out1
Element select relay on Out8

Wire trigger (+) of 5v DPDT relay to Out8.

Relay pole #1 NC contact to Out0
Relay pole #1 NO contact is unused
Relay pole #1 COMMON contact to HLT SSR

Relay pole #2 NC contact is unused
Relay pole #2 NO contact to Out1
Relay pole #2 COMMON contact to BK SSR

When Out8 is not energized, the circuit to the HLT SSR is capable of being energized, but not the circuit to the BK SSR. Energize Out8 and it is the opposite.

Does this work?
__________________
Surf City Brewing (TM)

My Single Tier, 3 Pump, BCS-462, Brutus Build: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/sing...ed-rig-204705/
My customized BCS-462 controller web interface: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/hack...s-done-209388/
My 8 tap, 11 keg, upright Keezer build: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/upri...1-kegs-371438/
JonW is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-11-2011, 07:19 AM   #25
bruin_ale
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Campbell, CA
Posts: 1,434
Liked 16 Times on 16 Posts

Default

Thanks Jon, that seems like it should work. I only get 6 outputs on the 460 though
Let's see, 2 elements, 1 pump, 1 element select. Only left with 2 - course there's always the expansion card, but I'm confused about how that works - you can only use those ports in a single process or something?

__________________
bruin_ale is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-11-2011, 05:43 PM   #26
Ohio-Ed
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Ohio-Ed's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,072
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW View Post
You could build your interlocks using relays on the BCS control side. That way even if the BCS is trying to command more then one SSR on, it won't be able to.

Also something to consider on the BCS processes - the higher level processes can override settings in the lower level processes. This could be handy in your situation.

Example:
Process 0 commands Out1 ON & Out2 OFF
Process 1 commands Out1 OFF & Out2 ON
If you were to have both Process 0 and Process 1 running at the same time, Process 1 will take precedence since it is the higher level process.

Manual mode however would allow you to turn both Out1 & Out2 on at the same time, so having relays to perform the interlock should be used.
Jon,

I did not realize there is a "precedence" between Processes on the BCS. I have a BCS460 and don't have the latest firmware, and on mine I think the processes are completely independent. Is the precedence based on the Process Number, or is there a "level" setting somewhere? I can't find any info about this, is the Process level precedence documented on the ECC Wiki?

The idea of using another output and a DPDT relay is very intriguing. If you could find a digital DPDT with NO & NC contacts, I wonder if you could have a constant toggle (50/50 or maybe 70/30 or 60/40) and basically use both elements at the same time? It would likely confuse the heck out of the PID, but you could "split" the time between 2 elements without any over current issue.

I'm out of outputs on my 460, so maybe it's time for a 462 with new firmware... hmmm.

Ed
__________________
Ohio-Ed is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-11-2011, 05:52 PM   #27
bruin_ale
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Campbell, CA
Posts: 1,434
Liked 16 Times on 16 Posts

Default

Interesting idea Ed, since I'm still in the design phase I'm going to think about that some more. It'd be really nice to maintain my sparge water temp while getting a head start on the boil at the same time.
Before the BCS firmware added actual PWM, they were doing it by setting a timer and using 2 states (State 0 = On wait 3 seconds, State 1 = Off, wait 1 second). Could definitely do something similar, but yeah - no idea what would happen with the PID. I'd think it would be able to manage since it's capable of switching many times per second - as long as it's got a long enough duty cycle to maintain the temp you're asking it to.

__________________
bruin_ale is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-11-2011, 06:05 PM   #28
JonW
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JonW's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Huntington Beach ☼
Posts: 1,493
Liked 104 Times on 64 Posts
Likes Given: 43

Default

Ed,


I've not seen any documentation on the precedence "feature" and I don't really know if it is in all versions of the firmware. My guess is that it is a core piece of the logic though and has probably been there since the beginning. There is no setting for it anywhere and I actually stumbled upon it's use by accident.

My first 3 processes are:
Process 0 = MLT Heat/Hold
Process 1 = HLT Heat/Hold
Process 2 = Fly Sparge

I run both process 0 and 1 simultaneously during my mash and when I am ready for sparging, I start process #2. Even though process 0 & 1 are still running, their outputs and temp settings get overridden by the settings of process 2. I then go back and turn off process 0 & 1 later.

Hopefully we'll see a future update that lets you chain processes together and start/stop processes from other processes. This would then allow full automation logic from beginning to end.

__________________
Surf City Brewing (TM)

My Single Tier, 3 Pump, BCS-462, Brutus Build: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/sing...ed-rig-204705/
My customized BCS-462 controller web interface: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/hack...s-done-209388/
My 8 tap, 11 keg, upright Keezer build: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/upri...1-kegs-371438/
JonW is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-11-2011, 10:14 PM   #29
Ohio-Ed
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Ohio-Ed's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,072
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW View Post
Ed,


I've not seen any documentation on the precedence "feature" and I don't really know if it is in all versions of the firmware. My guess is that it is a core piece of the logic though and has probably been there since the beginning. There is no setting for it anywhere and I actually stumbled upon it's use by accident.

My first 3 processes are:
Process 0 = MLT Heat/Hold
Process 1 = HLT Heat/Hold
Process 2 = Fly Sparge

I run both process 0 and 1 simultaneously during my mash and when I am ready for sparging, I start process #2. Even though process 0 & 1 are still running, their outputs and temp settings get overridden by the settings of process 2. I then go back and turn off process 0 & 1 later.

Hopefully we'll see a future update that lets you chain processes together and start/stop processes from other processes. This would then allow full automation logic from beginning to end.
Jon,

Have you tried starting Process 2, then starting Process 0?

I thought it was as simply as the last process to access an output (on or off) got control of it. In other words, I thought if you have 2 running processes that referenced the same output, they would BOTH change it.

I agree, I'd like to see more interaction between processes.


Ed
__________________
Ohio-Ed is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-11-2011, 10:23 PM   #30
JonW
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JonW's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Huntington Beach ☼
Posts: 1,493
Liked 104 Times on 64 Posts
Likes Given: 43

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio-Ed View Post
Jon,

Have you tried starting Process 2, then starting Process 0?

I thought it was as simply as the last process to access an output (on or off) got control of it. In other words, I thought if you have 2 running processes that referenced the same output, they would BOTH change it.

I agree, I'd like to see more interaction between processes.


Ed
No, it is definitely the higher level process that takes precedence. I just tested it to be sure. I turned on Process2, then Process1, then Process0. All valves stayed in the Process2 configuration. I then turned off Process2 while 0 & 1 were still on and the configuration reverted to what those two processes were requesting.

Ed, I would be interested in hearing if yours works the same. There has only been one firmware update since I've had my BCS and it has worked the same on both versions.
__________________
Surf City Brewing (TM)

My Single Tier, 3 Pump, BCS-462, Brutus Build: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/sing...ed-rig-204705/
My customized BCS-462 controller web interface: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/hack...s-done-209388/
My 8 tap, 11 keg, upright Keezer build: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/upri...1-kegs-371438/
JonW is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Control Panel VS Computer Bru Electric Brewing 14 01-26-2012 02:35 AM
Quick control panel wiring question ExHempKnight Electric Brewing 3 02-03-2011 04:03 AM
Control Panel Breakers DeeDub76 Electric Brewing 4 01-26-2011 06:09 PM
control panel on/off switch stevehaun Electric Brewing 3 12-18-2010 04:49 PM
need input on control panel SpaceCoastBrew Electric Brewing 13 10-28-2010 03:28 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS