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Old 11-18-2012, 01:00 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by milesvdustin View Post
Your safe start schematic looks legit to me.
I'd strongly suggest that the contactor be replaced with one that has an auxiliary NO contact. Replace the ON switch with a NO push button (use the one from the current emergency off kluge) in series with a NC push button. Wire the auxiliary contact across the NO push button. When you push the NO button the contactor coil is energized and the auxiliary contact keeps it energized thus latching the contactor on. When you subsequently press the NC button the contactor is de-energized and stays so until the NO button is pushed again.

This is, IMO, superior to the leakage current scheme which, if the fuse opens or is dislodged or if GFCI coil fails, won't interrupt current. The suggested arrangement fails off.

If you can't find a contactor with auxiliary contacts (I'd be surprised) or have already invested in one and don't want to buy another you can do the latching function is a separate relay and feed the contactor coil through a contact pair on that relay.

Although OP is a bit cryptic about it I assume there are NC interlock switches at various points throughout. This is not inconsistent with the arrangement I'm suggesting. These would be wired in series with the 'Stop' push button. When you open one of these interlocks the power will go off and stay off until you both close the interlock and pust the 'Start' button again.

Also, as I note there is a low voltage transformer all the controls could be done with low voltage if it were, for example, deemed preferable to daisy chain low voltage to the interlock string. This might be a good idea if one were to want an extra emergency stop button at some distance from the control box. So perhaps the extra relay suggested above would be the better approach as it could be a low voltage relay and the start/stop/interlock string could all be low voltage relay plus the contactor in hand could still be used.

If it's not clear what I'm suggesting from my words let me know and I'll put up a diagram.
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:08 PM   #12
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I went back and forth in my head on that one - part of me doesn't like the idea of the leakage current and tripping the GFCI breaker. But then I came to the realization that, with the method you describe, the panel still has power to it, just not to the actual components. So if something goes bad, a pot somehow explodes and showers water all over my panel - it's still hot even though it may appear off. Killing the GFCI is the only way to actually be sure that the panel is 100% powered down. I'll take my chances (limited in my opinion) that the GFCI will fail to trip with the leakage current.

That - and I already bought all the stuff to do it this way...

-Kevin

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Old 11-18-2012, 02:28 PM   #13
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I had further thoughts while you were posting and edited mine (which was a dumb thing to do but I often get away with it as people often don't see a new post for quite a while). Anyway please check it again for the last couple of paragraphs. There is nothing there that will change your mind probably but some of the additional thoughts may be of interest.


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Originally Posted by BadNewsBrewery View Post
I went back and forth in my head on that one - part of me doesn't like the idea of the leakage current and tripping the GFCI breaker. But then I came to the realization that, with the method you describe, the panel still has power to it, just not to the actual components. So if something goes bad, a pot somehow explodes and showers water all over my panel - it's still hot even though it may appear off. Killing the GFCI is the only way to actually be sure that the panel is 100% powered down.
Suppose you did it as I suggest and your panel got showered with liquid. That shouldn't be of concern to you because given what you are doing and where you are doing it you should be in (minimum) a NEMA 2 enclosure designed to protect against exactly that threat.

Second, suppose the enclosure fails and water/wort does enter the panel. What will happen? If there is a phase to phase fault then the breaker will trip in normal mode. If there is a ground fault the GFCI will trip anyway - that's what it is supposed to do.


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Originally Posted by BadNewsBrewery View Post
I'll take my chances (limited in my opinion) that the GFCI will fail to trip with the leakage current.
Simple enough to test it at each brew session if you can remember to do it. Bit of a PITA to have to go back to the panel and reset it though.


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That - and I already bought all the stuff to do it this way...
Some of the additional stuff in my last post emphasizes that you could use all the components you have but you would have to obtain a few more.

Really my main objection to 'fooling' the GFCI is caused by a niggling feeling in the back of my mind that that isn't really what a GFCI is for and the reasoning that the kind of fault you are worrying about should trip it anyway. I did find a discussion about using GFCI's as shunt trip breakers on an electricians board. One guy there said doing it violated 110.3(B) but all that says is that listed or labeled equipment must be installed and used in accordance with the listing or labeling. So unless the label on your GFCI says 'don't use it as a shunt trip breaker' I guess it doesn't violate code.

Of course the 'proper' way to do this, given that you don't accept that the GFCI as is provides sufficient protection, is to use a shunt trip breaker but this, of course, requires that you run the control line back to the panel.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:44 PM   #14
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I appreciate the points you're making. A shunt trip breaker would be clutch. My panel is very close to the brewery so it'd be easy enough to run the control line... but I'm not sure where I'd get one or if it'd be worth the extra $$.

The leak current and the latching contactor are both valid means of doing what we'd like while not really being the way it'd be done in industry (I think).

The low voltage part of my design is only for the LED backlighting I'm running. I don't think I'll push the transformer to do double duty and start running mixed voltage through my system.
-Kevin

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Old 11-18-2012, 03:17 PM   #15
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Everything is laid out and ready to go...

forumrunner_20121118_101640.png   forumrunner_20121118_101701.png  
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2014:
5gal Scottish Wee Heavy
5gal Saison
15gal American Pale Ale
20gal Belgian Wit
10gal Oktoberfest
10gal Southern Pecan Ale
5gal Winter Spice Ale

Keg 1: Apfelwein
Keg 2: Oktoberfest
Keg 3: Southern Pecan
Keg 4: Winter Spice Ale
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:22 AM   #16
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Making progress!! Cutting the holes for the PIDs was rough just because they have so little wiggle room for error. Need to cut in the SSRs and a 120v outlet I'm mounting, then sand, paint, and wiring. I haven't figures out what I'm doing for the backlight display yet so that will wait.

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2014:
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5gal Saison
15gal American Pale Ale
20gal Belgian Wit
10gal Oktoberfest
10gal Southern Pecan Ale
5gal Winter Spice Ale

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Keg 2: Oktoberfest
Keg 3: Southern Pecan
Keg 4: Winter Spice Ale
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:03 AM   #17
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I'm working on trying to develop a better wiring diagram than the one I had previously. Where are you guys getting the PID drawings to utilize for your diagrams?

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2014:
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5gal Saison
15gal American Pale Ale
20gal Belgian Wit
10gal Oktoberfest
10gal Southern Pecan Ale
5gal Winter Spice Ale

Keg 1: Apfelwein
Keg 2: Oktoberfest
Keg 3: Southern Pecan
Keg 4: Winter Spice Ale
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:47 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by BadNewsBrewery View Post
I'm working on trying to develop a better wiring diagram than the one I had previously. Where are you guys getting the PID drawings to utilize for your diagrams?
I think they get them from here: It took me quite a bit of time to put it together.

As always - Click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



I sure hope this helps you in your adventure.

P-J
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:17 PM   #19
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P-J,
You are, without a doubt, the man. This will go a long way to keeping me from killing myself, and my employer will thank you that I can be productive today instead of trying to design my own diagram on Power Point while trying to look up symbols and basically scratching my head.

I will be wiring the safe-start the same way Kal did, which should be easy enough to throw in with a few NC switch blocks on the pump and heating element switches. And I will be adding a 120vac to 24vdc transformer to run the LEDs for my backlight display, but that will come off the Hot 2 terminal block as a separate leg with a fuse.

Again - thank you so much for what you do for us here on this board. I'm not sure what we could ever do to repay you other than to offer our unyielding thanks.

-Kevin

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Old 11-19-2012, 03:41 PM   #20
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You are welcome.

I just noticed in your parts layout that you are going to use a key switch for your mains power. I revised the diagram to show that. (With a new drawing name.) You show a lot of other switches on top you controller box but I don't have a clue what your intent is with them.

As always - Click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")




P-J

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