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Old 04-27-2011, 07:52 PM   #21
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Wow, I've found my PID to be DRAMATICALLY more accurate and resistant to overshoot since I moved the RTD to the tee and put a 90 deg barb on the kettle return to force the kettle to whirlpool.

Turns out my "overshoot" was happening not because of the PID but because of stratification in the kettle. PID would think the kettle's at say 154 and I'd start pumping to the MLT. Temp would shoot up as the hotter water at the top got pumped in. Keeping the kettle more homogeneous has made for much more accurate mashes in my system.

I'm still experiencing occasional integral windup with huge SV changes however. I just remember to give the PID a kick by momentarily unplugging the RTD 10-15 deg before SV.

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Old 04-27-2011, 09:01 PM   #22
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I've considered trying to move my RTD as well. Mine is located inside the HERMS coil and is measuring the wort as it exits the coil. I don't think stratification is my issue because the temperature should balance out as the wort goes through the coil. What I am worried about is that the wort will respond slower to the temperature change than the water in the kettle. So by the time the wort reaches the SV temperature, water in the kettle is already too warm and will cause it to overshoot. This shouldn't be a problem once I hit my mash temp, but could make it very difficult to reach it.

I'm not sure what to do about this. I really like the idea of measuring the actual wort temperature, rather than having to calculate the difference between the wort temp and the water temp. Also, if I put the RTD in the kettle instead of the HEX, I have to figure how to deal with the stratification.

So this is what happened to me on my last brew day. I started out with the SouF at .7, doubled my I, and set the D to zero. I overshot my strike temp a little but it was less than a degree. Once I mashed in the temperature was about 1-2 degrees too low, and after 15 minutes it wasn't getting much closer to my SV. I set the SouF to .6, set the I value to 150% of its original (autotune) value, and only decreased the D by 50% of it's original value. This seemed to work better for me.

I am making somewhat of a big change in my system that may throw a wrench in this, but should be better in the long run. I have a 2nd PID that I use for my BK in manual mode, but the RTD attached to that PID is actually measuring the temperature in my MLT (so I have a 2nd reference point during my mash). I decided to buy a 3rd RTD to put in the BK so I can heat my strike water in the BK instead of the HLT. That way I can set the temperature the HLT and never have to change it. If I can eliminate having to deal with the temperature drop in my HLT from strike temp to mash temp, hopefully it will stabilize my system enough that I don't have to move the RTD outside of the coil.

Anyway....that is where I am at. Clear as stout, right?

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Old 05-17-2011, 11:40 PM   #23
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Finally getting back to this topic. First brew day I overshot as much as 5F during the mash. I played around with the numbers and never really got a handle on correcting the problem. What I finally figured out was that having my RTD in a tee with the ball-valve was an ill advised location due to a lack of wort volume. I changed that and put the RTD directly into the kettle and re-tuned.

I wound up with P .07, I 312, D 78, Souf .2 . At this point with only a water test my temp stayed within .1 degree of SV. Assuming hopefully similar results on next brew day I will be a happy camper.
Finally got to test this with a live brew. When just heating my water for the initial mash (10 gallons BIAB) I overshot several degrees. I finally remembered that when I auto-tuned I had the pump recirculating rather slowly so I adjusted the flow downwards and the temps stabilized. During the actual mash the total temp swing was from 152.3 to 153.4 with a SV of 153F. I consider this a success and I don't intend to mess with that part of the process.
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Old 08-06-2011, 03:03 PM   #24
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I've been using my system and mostly enjoy the ease of brewing, however I've found with my settings how finicky the PID can be. If I don't have everything set just right (mostly pump speed and location of recirculation hose) the system won't get to temperature or it will overshoot. When I have it set perfectly it will stay in range as I posted above.

All in all I'm thinking that the BCS controller I have on my single tier stand does a much better job - although I am going to sell it one of these days.

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Old 09-25-2011, 10:45 PM   #25
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I'm breaking in my new system and I've had some issues with my SYL-2362's. I've tried running auto tune several of times with just water in the system and I've not had any luck. I set the set point to 160F turn auto tune on and it runs for over an hour and takes the temp to 210F before I cut it off. I've gathered from reading that isn't normal operation.

I did an extract batch using my boil PID in manual mode and even that didn't appear to work correctly. I left it at 100% until I reached boiling and started backing it down. Every time I checked on the boil it was a vigorous rolling boil. I even took it down to 1% and it was rolling just as hard as ever.

I manually programmed the PIDs using jkarp's input several posts back but even that didn't help the auto tune process. What am I doing wrong with this?

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Old 09-25-2011, 11:52 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by SpaceCoastBrew
I'm breaking in my new system and I've had some issues with my SYL-2362's. I've tried running auto tune several of times with just water in the system and I've not had any luck. I set the set point to 160F turn auto tune on and it runs for over an hour and takes the temp to 210F before I cut it off. I've gathered from reading that isn't normal operation.

I did an extract batch using my boil PID in manual mode and even that didn't appear to work correctly. I left it at 100% until I reached boiling and started backing it down. Every time I checked on the boil it was a vigorous rolling boil. I even took it down to 1% and it was rolling just as hard as ever.

I manually programmed the PIDs using jkarp's input several posts back but even that didn't help the auto tune process. What am I doing wrong with this?
I bet you have the wiring wrong somehow. Like the pid isn't controlling the element. I'm no expert so caveat emptor, but it'd be nice to see how you have it wired up.
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:07 AM   #27
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It's not the wiring. I followed Kal's (theelectricbrewery.com) wiring schematic and I've double checked everything in the control panel. They all calibrate fine, they read temps fine, there's something not quite with the controlling aspect.

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Old 09-26-2011, 03:50 AM   #28
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I haven't got my model 2352 up and running yet so caveat emptor.... But I have read the manual and I'm pretty sure that if you do have the pid set to manual at 1% then you shouldn't be boiling that quantity of water. Either you pid is defective or the wiring is incorrect. Or you aren't actually putting the pid in manual mode.

Edit: maybe you are using a 5500 watt element to boil 3 gal.. Then MAYBE 1% could maintain a rolling boil.

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Old 09-26-2011, 02:45 PM   #29
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Test the SSR, might be in a failed state. If you disconnect the PID from the SSR (low voltage wires) does the element still heat the water?

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Old 09-26-2011, 04:41 PM   #30
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I hadn't thought about my SSRs, I'll have to check them out and see if they failed closed.

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