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Old 03-25-2011, 05:15 AM   #11
dtfeld
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I haven't used my Auber PID yet, but this sounds wrong. What is the point of the device if you always have to use the same water amounts?
Unfortunately, thats the nature of these things. If you have more or less water, the temperature will increase slower or faster depending and it will give you an undershoot or overshoot.

These things are designed to work in a steady state environment, not a variable one.

However, its going to get you what you need and work really well unless you start needing 2X or 1/2 the water. If that the case, you might need to auto-tune at those volumns and manually set up the PID parameters manually for each batch size so that once in auto mode, you'll get good results.
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:55 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by dtfeld

I know, but my auber seems to want to overshoot. Just re-tuned it tonight at 7 gallons. Still wants to go a degree or two high. I have the -52 version with a Pt100.

In practice, works really well though. Whats a degree or two amungst friends?
You should try raising the SouF value, which is supposed to control the overshoot. If you read about it in the manual that variable, that is exactly what it is supposed to control. If it is too low, it will overshoot. The range is .1-.10 and mine was set for .02. My belief is that it has to help. I'm looking forward to testing it out, although I'm not sure when I'll be able to.
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Old 03-26-2011, 03:49 PM   #13
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Ok, here's what I've got my 2362 set at right now. I'm still playing around a good bit so consider this a work in progress:

Inty = P10.0
outy = 2
Hy = 0.1
Atdu = 0
Psb = 0
rd = 0
CorF = 1

P = 0.9
I = 420
d = 0
SouF = 0.7
ot = 2
FILt = 0

As "D" is the culprit for most stability issues (engineers who use PIDs in manufacturing often joke the D stands for Death), and as our systems generally don't experience rapid PV changes, I'm currently using my 2362 as a PI only controller. Read on for why as well as a breakdown of the 2362's PID controls...

P is easy to understand. Set to Fahrenheit and P10.0, the temp range of the 2362 is 1100 degrees. A P of .9% x 1100 = roughly a 10 degree proportional band. This means if SV is 150 and PV is 140 (or lower), output should be 100%. At a PV of 145, output should be 50%.

I is tougher to put into simple math terms but the key thing to note about I is it is time based. It boosts the output based on how long PV has been away from SV. If you override your PID's control by killing output to the heating element, it doesn't know this. All it knows is PV is NOT changing based on its output so I becomes a bigger and bigger influence on the PID output. When you turn the element back on, an overshoot can occur because the PID thinks a LOT of output is now necessary to get PV to SV. Every time you override the PID's output, you should reset its time reference by power cycling or by setting a new SV.

The dreaded D... D's job is to influence output based on how quickly PV is diverging from SV. A great example of the need for D would be in an oven. When the door is opened, the hot air rapidly escapes. Instead of waiting for PV to fall to the point where P ramps up output, D will immediately boost output itself based on how rapidly the divergence from SV is occurring. The thing is, our systems don't have rapid PV changes. An incorrect D value can lead to significant oscillations in the system - both overshoot and undershoot of the SV. This is why I've scrapped using D.

Finally, SouF. This is the 2362's "artificial intelligence" control on output. No details on the algorithm are provided by Auber. All we know is it dampens overshoot with a variable level of influence from 0.1 to 1.0. In my tests it does seem to work quite well, as long as one keeps in mind the previously mentioned time factor of I.

So, how to set up your 2362 PID? First, make sure your config is correct. For an RTD probe, set Inty = P10.0, not P100. With an SSR, hysteresis should be small, like Hy = 0.1. Set Atdu = 0 as it's OK if PV overshoots SV during auto-tune. Set CorF to your preferred temperature scale and stick with it. Changing CorF or Inty changes the math and will require a new auto-tune run. Don't mess with Psb at this point.

Now you've got choices...

Option 1: Auto-tune.
Set up your system as it would normally run for brewing. Typical water volume, pump on if you recirculate your mash, etc. Give the temp probe 5 minutes to stabilize before powering up the PID. Now power up the PID and enter a SV of 150F. Press and hold > until the "AT" indicator starts to blink. Go have a few beers. This will take a while. Once "AT" is done blinking, auto-tune is done and PV should match SV (150F). Using your lab thermometer, check the actual system temp. If it's not 150F, now's the time to adjust the 2362's Psb setting to compensate. Now go into the PID parameters and set SouF to at least .5, higher if you experience overshoot in operation.

Option 2: PI operation.
Basically same steps as option 1 except while you're in the PID parameters, change I to be 1.5x the auto-tuned value and set d to 0.

Option 3: P operation.
Screw auto-tune, screw this damn PID trying to out-think you! Set P to the proportional band you want. Assuming Inty = P10.0 and CorF = 1, a P of 1.8 = about 20 deg, 0.9 = about 10 deg, and 0.5 = about 5 deg. Set I and d to 0. Now the PID will strictly set output in proportion to the PV. This actually works EXTREMELY well, assuming one critical point - that your temp probe is very close to the heat source. If it's not, say the probe's in the MLT and you're heating in a RIMS tube, the delay between heat output and probe reading can again lead to overshoot.

Disclaimers:
I ain't an expert in this stuff, but I've been reading quite a bit on PID theory, talking to Auber about the 2362 specifically, and running lots of tests. I'd definitely like feedback from PID gurus out there.

PID values & tuning procedures are not transferrable across models - even Auber's! The 2352 uses an ENTIRELY different value for P. Someone else will need to write the 2352 setup guide.

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Old 03-26-2011, 04:10 PM   #14
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Option 1: Auto-tune.
Set up your system as it would normally run for brewing. Typical water volume, pump on if you recirculate your mash, etc. Give the temp probe 5 minutes to stabilize before powering up the PID. Now power up the PID and enter a SV of 150F. Press and hold > until the "AT" indicator starts to blink. Go have a few beers. This will take a while. Once "AT" is done blinking, auto-tune is done and PV should match SV (150F). Using your lab thermometer, check the actual system temp. If it's not 150F, now's the time to adjust the 2362's Psb setting to compensate. Now go into the PID parameters and set SouF to at least .5, higher if you experience overshoot in operation.
I think this is a great post, although I won't know for sure until I try it.

How would you know you experienced overshoot if you go have a few beers? Wouldn't you need to be sitting and watching when you get near the set point? I am being serious - not joking here, or is there some logging feature that tells you?

Does Auber acknowledge that the auto tune is in need of a redo?

Thanks for the info - almost ready this week to give it a whirl.
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Old 03-26-2011, 04:24 PM   #15
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How would you know you experienced overshoot if you go have a few beers? Wouldn't you need to be sitting and watching when you get near the set point? I am being serious - not joking here, or is there some logging feature that tells you?

Does Auber acknowledge that the auto tune is in need of a redo?
It WILL overshoot during auto-tune. That's how it learns. If you see overshoot during brewing, bump up SouF.

Auto-tune works fine for what it does. A homebrewer's PID requirements are a bit different from those of someone running a kiln or oven.
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Old 03-26-2011, 06:44 PM   #16
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I have a question, I am looking at PIDs, what is the difference between the 2352 and 2362?

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Old 03-27-2011, 03:14 AM   #17
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Ok, here's what I've got my 2362 set at right now. I'm still playing around a good bit so consider this a work in progress:
Wow...jkarp. Thank you! This is great stuff. Your definitions are much easier to understand then the manual. It is definitely Sticky worthy IMO.

After reading this, maybe the "D" got me. I rapidly dropped the temperature 10+ degrees by adding cold water, which would have flipped it out. Should it have reset once I lowered the SV from my Strike Temp to Mashing Temp?

I think I'm going to try eliminating the "D" and raise my SouF .7. Again...Thank you!
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Old 03-28-2011, 03:53 PM   #18
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Here is a tip... I find the PID to be very good at holding temps, but piss-poor at reaching temps without overshooting. This (I think) is due to the fact that your element neads to heat up over time, so a given power setting yields different heat output over time (to a point).

The FIX:

run water though the system and let the pid stabilize at some set temperature (preferably around 155). Then, hold down the SET key until the PID goes into manual override mode. Note the readout... it will be the percentage of power that the PID was just using to hold your water at that temp (for me, this is about 25% power). This is called "bumpless transfer" - see your manual for more info on accessing manual mode if your model differs.

Now that you know what power output is necessary to hold your temps (it varies with other variables.. that's what the PID is for, but it is a good ballpark, you should leave your PID in manual mode at 100% power (or 90, or 80.. whatever) to heat your water or raise your wort to temperature. Once you are within a degree or so, set the output to your measured 'stable temperature' output level (for me, 25%). THEN hold down SET to return to PID control mode. "Bumpless transfer" will tell the PID to use that last setting (25%) to start with and adjust itself much more sanely from there.

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Old 03-28-2011, 04:19 PM   #19
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A properly configured PID shouldn't overshoot significantly. I suspect what you're seeing is integral windup. Increase your I value and try running in PI only mode.

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Old 04-27-2011, 06:05 PM   #20
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Finally getting back to this topic. First brew day I overshot as much as 5F during the mash. I played around with the numbers and never really got a handle on correcting the problem. What I finally figured out was that having my RTD in a tee with the ball-valve was an ill advised location due to a lack of wort volume. I changed that and put the RTD directly into the kettle and re-tuned.

I wound up with P .07, I 312, D 78, Souf .2 . At this point with only a water test my temp stayed within .1 degree of SV. Assuming hopefully similar results on next brew day I will be a happy camper.

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