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Old 03-24-2011, 03:41 PM   #1
rudy0498
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Default Auber SYL-2362 Temperature Control Issues

I built an E-HERMS rig a while back. I've done 3 batches so far and have worked through most of the issues that are obviously of my own doing. During my last brew session, I believe that I did everything right for the most part. But, after mashing in and dropping the SV on my HLT from strike temp (165) to the mash temp (154), the PID kept heating all the way up to 173 before I gave up and killed the power to the element. Once I was able to cool it back down (which took about 30 minutes), I switched the element back on. From that point, it stayed right on my mash temp for the rest of the mash.

I have auto-tuned multiple times and calibrated my RTD (PT100). The last time I auto-tuned, I heated water (only) to mashing temps before I started the auto-tune, and recirculated through my MLT until the auto-tune finished. I figure that this is closest simulation I can get without screwing up an actual mash.


Couple of Things about my setup/method:
- My RTD is placed at the end of my HEX right before it goes back into the MLT.
- I recirculate continuously throughout the mash.
- After mashing in, I add cold water to the HLT to drop it down to my mash temp.

If anyone has any tips or tests I can try use to isolate the problem, I would greatly appreciate it. I have read through some threads and haven't seen any potential causes that I haven't already eliminated.



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Old 03-24-2011, 04:00 PM   #2
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Did you change the amount of water in your HLT? The autotune function set the system up for a given volume of water and if you deviate, the PID will not work weel in this "new system" ie larger volumn of water to heat and also cool.

My PID is tuned atthe 6 gallon mark in a converted Rubbermaid 10 gal cooler/HEX. If I try the same thing at 7+ it will typically overshoot dramitically.



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Old 03-24-2011, 04:08 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by dtfeld View Post
Did you change the amount of water in your HLT? The autotune function set the system up for a given volume of water and if you deviate, the PID will not work weell in this "new system" ie larger valumn of water to heat and also cool.

My PID is tuned atthe 6 gallon mark in a converted Rubbermaid 10 gal cooler/HEX. If I try the same thing at 7+ it will typically overshoot dramitically.
I haven't used my Auber PID yet, but this sounds wrong. What is the point of the device if you always have to use the same water amounts?
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:31 PM   #4
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Mine adjusts just fine with different volumes. :/

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Old 03-24-2011, 04:37 PM   #5
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The auto-tune on the 2362 isn't ideally suited for brewing where we really need a critically damped behavior.

First off, set your IntY to P10.0 (not P100) to get increased accuracy out of the sensor and re-run auto-tune with a water volume around your "normal" brew session size. After that's done, post your P I d and SouF values and I can probably offer some tweaks to control the over-shoot.

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Old 03-24-2011, 04:39 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by dtfeld View Post
Did you change the amount of water in your HLT? The autotune function set the system up for a given volume of water and if you deviate, the PID will not work weell in this "new system" ie larger valumn of water to heat and also cool.

My PID is tuned atthe 6 gallon mark in a converted Rubbermaid 10 gal cooler/HEX. If I try the same thing at 7+ it will typically overshoot dramitically.
Overshoot or Undershoot? I could see that if it is tuned at one volume and you increase that volume, it would take more power to heat than it expects. So I would think that it would undershoot, or take longer than normal. I could see it overshooting if you decreased the volume.

I'm pretty sure that during my last auto-tune attempt, I did have 7 gallons in my HLT. That is my goal volume during the mash, because that is just enough to submerge my HEX.


This is how I heat my mash:
1.) I initially heat my mash water plus what I want left in my HLT to strike temp. Last time this was about 165.
2.) After I hit my temp, I transfer the mash water into the MLT, leaving behind about 6.5 gallons of water in the HLT.
3.) I add a half gallon of room temperature water to the HLT to get it down to my mashing temp and change the SV. Last time it was 154.

The overshoot happened right after I changed the SV to 154 and added my half gallon of water. I wonder how quickly the PID adjusts to a change in the SV or PV. If there is a delay, and I suddenly dropped the PV 12 degrees by adding that water...maybe it didn't react to the fact that I changed the SV as well. But if that is the case, what is the best way to adjust the temparature without making the PID go bananas.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:58 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by jkarp View Post
The auto-tune on the 2362 isn't ideally suited for brewing where we really need a critically damped behavior.

First off, set your IntY to P10.0 (not P100) to get increased accuracy out of the sensor and re-run auto-tune with a water volume around your "normal" brew session size. After that's done, post your P I d and SouF values and I can probably offer some tweaks to control the over-shoot.
OK...I did have it set to P10.0. Here are my Configuration Parameters:

Inty = P10.0
outy = 2
Hy = 000.3
Atdu = 010
Psb = 000.6
rd = 0
CorF = 1

Here are my PID parameters:

P = 00.7
I = 0159
d = 039
SouF = 0.2
ot = 002
FILt = 0
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:23 PM   #8
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Damn, too quick! All my notes are @ home.

From memory those numbers don't look too crazy though. The easiest thing to try first is simply crank up SouF so the artificial intelligence algorithm has more influence over the over-shoot. Set it to .8 or .7 and do a test-run...

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Old 03-24-2011, 08:17 PM   #9
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Damn, too quick! All my notes are @ home.

From memory those numbers don't look too crazy though. The easiest thing to try first is simply crank up SouF so the artificial intelligence algorithm has more influence over the over-shoot. Set it to .8 or .7 and do a test-run...
Ha yeah...I'm home sick from work today. Plus the kids are at school, so I'm free of "other obligations."

I was reading over the manual and it does look like the SouF is the right variable to tweak. If you get a chance to look over your notes and can provide any more advice, I'd appreciate it. It might be a couple weeks before I get a chance to do a test run, but I'll post back to let you know how it turns out.

Thanks!
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Old 03-25-2011, 05:09 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by rudy0498 View Post
Overshoot or Undershoot? I could see that if it is tuned at one volume and you increase that volume, it would take more power to heat than it expects. So I would think that it would undershoot, or take longer than normal. I could see it overshooting if you decreased the volume.

I'm pretty sure that during my last auto-tune attempt, I did have 7 gallons in my HLT. That is my goal volume during the mash, because that is just enough to submerge my HEX.


This is how I heat my mash:
1.) I initially heat my mash water plus what I want left in my HLT to strike temp. Last time this was about 165.
2.) After I hit my temp, I transfer the mash water into the MLT, leaving behind about 6.5 gallons of water in the HLT.
3.) I add a half gallon of room temperature water to the HLT to get it down to my mashing temp and change the SV. Last time it was 154.

The overshoot happened right after I changed the SV to 154 and added my half gallon of water. I wonder how quickly the PID adjusts to a change in the SV or PV. If there is a delay, and I suddenly dropped the PV 12 degrees by adding that water...maybe it didn't react to the fact that I changed the SV as well. But if that is the case, what is the best way to adjust the temparature without making the PID go bananas.
I know, but my auber seems to want to overshoot. Just re-tuned it tonight at 7 gallons. Still wants to go a degree or two high. I have the -52 version with a Pt100.

In practice, works really well though. Whats a degree or two amungst friends?


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