New Giveaway - Wort Monster Conical Fermenter!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Electric Brewing > Auber SYL-2352 Overshoots mash temp by about 5 degrees.




Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-05-2012, 03:15 PM   #1
BrewinBigD
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stratham, NH
Posts: 276
Liked 6 Times on 5 Posts

Default Auber SYL-2352 Overshoots mash temp by about 5 degrees.

Hey guys,
i just finished assembling my E brewery the other night and wanna do a full run on the system just using water to start dialing it in.
i connected my temp probes, and elements to the control panel and set the basics on the temp controller. (set probe type, temp type, etc,, and set a tatger temp of 154 degrees to see how long it would take to ramp up. the system started quiet, then as the water warmed you could hear the element fire o and off as the temp controller droe it up to set point. BOOM! 20 minutes,, mash temp. then as i think the element is getting ready to slow its on off cycle, it fires again,, and contiues to fire until about 159 degrees before it shuts off.
is this a common occurrence for new controllers? is there a way to prevent overshooting my target temps through a settings change orshouldnt the controller automatically compute the P, the I and the D?



cheeahs drink some beeahs



__________________
BrewinBigD is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2012, 04:05 PM   #2
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 2,511
Liked 157 Times on 135 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

You probably need to let the controller perform an auto-tune. The stock settings in my 2352 were far too conservative and also produced an overshoot. After the auto-tune, it was much better for my system.

Also, be sure to check your temperature probe offset against a trusted (preferably, calibrated) thermometer. I use a k-type thermocouple with a long lead and I had to dial in about 30 degrees of offset to provide a decent agreement with my NIST-calibrated reference thermometer. Do not rely on what the PID says the temperature is until this calibration is performed or use another external thermometer to assess the mash temp.



__________________

Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2012, 06:46 PM   #3
MoesTavern
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: campbell, ca
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabrungard View Post
You probably need to let the controller perform an auto-tune. The stock settings in my 2352 were far too conservative and also produced an overshoot. After the auto-tune, it was much better for my system.

Also, be sure to check your temperature probe offset against a trusted (preferably, calibrated) thermometer. I use a k-type thermocouple with a long lead and I had to dial in about 30 degrees of offset to provide a decent agreement with my NIST-calibrated reference thermometer. Do not rely on what the PID says the temperature is until this calibration is performed or use another external thermometer to assess the mash temp.
Hopefully not hijacking..

Thanks Martin,

How do we perform an auto-tune?

My RTD reads dead nuts, verified by two lab-calibrated therms.

Heating strike water is perfect: It reaches target temp, drops one degree, kicks on, bumps up to target temp, and dithers right there all day long. Nice.

Then I dough in. It drops several degrees, then overshoots like a crazed SOB. Both the temp probe and element are fully submerged, too. I have to monkey with (turn down) my target temp to get mash temp where I want it. Two brews so far.

What to do?

Thanks
__________________
MoesTavern is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2012, 09:23 PM   #4
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 2,511
Liked 157 Times on 135 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

Auto-tune is invoked by scrolling through the menu to the At spot and then you change the normally "3" setting to either "1 or 2".

RTD's are inherently more accurate than thermocouples. I've got about 6 ft of cable to the probe and that probably affected my settings. Oh well. At least its correctable.

You didn't describe where the temperature sensor is located with respect to the heating source in the flow circuit. For best performance and repeatability, the sensor needs to be as close as possible to the heat source so that there is less chance for overshoot. I have my sensor immediately downstream of the heater. I also have manual dial thermometers in my wort circuit at the inlet and outlet of the mash tun. The temps between all the measurement points can be off by several degrees when stepping up the temps, but they will tend to fall in line as the system reaches equilibrium. Having great insulation on the tun and all wort circuits helps reduce heat losses.

__________________

Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2012, 02:56 AM   #5
BrewinBigD
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stratham, NH
Posts: 276
Liked 6 Times on 5 Posts

Default

i figured it was an auto tuning type issue. them temp readings were outta the box, and was dead on with my brewmometer, which may be a few degrees off as ive yet to bring everything into work and compare it in our temp chamber.

when i firs decided to go electric, i had two CAL controls temp controllers without the autotune and i had to manually calculate the proportional, integral and derivative values. a real PITA to begin with and even more of a pain trying to do in my cold as balls garage.

__________________
BrewinBigD is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2012, 09:00 PM   #6
kal
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
kal's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,959
Liked 177 Times on 120 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

IMHO the best way to do an autotune is slightly below the target temp and to do it in the range where the PID will be working. For example, 154F for mash.

To quote myself:

Quote:
At (auto tuning): The first few times you brew the temperature may rise higher or drop lower than the temperature you set. This is normal. The PID will automatically learn the heating and cooling characteristics of your setup and tune itself over time to provide more precise temperature control. This learning can also be forced by having the PID perform auto tuning. Auto tuning only needs to be performed once. If anything drastic changes about your setup, consider performing it again. To perform auto tuning, do the following:

1. Fill your tank with water and set the PID to a typical mash temperature of around 154F.

2. Once the water is approximately 10 degrees below the 154F set temperature, set the At setting to 2. Auto tuning will automatically start after 10 seconds. For the next 10-20 minutes the PID will automatically turn the heating element on and off multiple times to see how fast temperature rises and drops in order to set the proportinal, integral, and derivative parameters automatically. The A/M light will blink during auto tuning. Once auto tuning is complete the At setting will return to the default value of 3.
Kal
kal is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2012, 11:26 PM   #7
BrewinBigD
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stratham, NH
Posts: 276
Liked 6 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Thanks Kal, and your website is awesome too. I based my setup roughly on yours but passed on the mechanical contactors and metering hardware. So far its working great!



__________________
BrewinBigD is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Auber 2352 PIDs terrazza Electric Brewing 5 10-13-2011 10:17 PM
Help with Auber 2352 bendavanza Electric Brewing 3 08-16-2011 07:38 PM
Help with Auber 2352 PID Navy_Brewer Electric Brewing 0 04-05-2011 07:38 PM
Auber SYL-2352 PID issue: Temp way off JayInJersey Electric Brewing 10 02-15-2011 11:44 PM
Auber 2352 vs. 2362 paledragon Electric Brewing 0 12-19-2010 01:24 PM