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Old 07-16-2012, 03:04 PM   #1
gnatp2
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Default 50 amp wiring diagram help - brewtroller

Ok, so I'm sure this has some errors in it. But I'm hoping I'm at least close to getting everything right here.
I've been working on setting up a a control panel with the brains of a Opentroller DX1. I've stolen some ideas from other builds that I've been looking at and have compiled them into this.
-This is a 1 tier, 3 tank HERMS system
-2 heating elements (HLT and Kettle) and want to be able to run both at the same time
-a mixture of 2 way and 3 way valves to control all the flow
-4 temp probes
-2 pumps, 2 extra 120VAC sockets for future expansion if needed
-a ton of switches and LEDs for on/off/auto controlling all the valves, heating elements, pumps
-9 Lights indicating the current stage of the brewing process

My questions are:
1) Does the wiring look right?
2) I have a few circuit breakers in there (what sizes should i use), but are there any other means of protection I should be putting into the control box?
3) I plan on having the SSR's, 3 level terminal block and circuit breakers mounted to DIN rails. With the SSR's on DIN rails, will heat be getting trapped inside the control panel?
4) I haven't been able to find much documentation on the RGBIO8 boards. How do these get wired? Do you just hook up the swtiches on one side of the board, and the LED's to the other side? And then DX1 knows which position the switch is in and then controls the lights according to the switch position?

Thanks,
Nate



Here is the faceplate for control panel. Not completely done with the details yet.
https://www.oscsys.com/sites/default...lPanelFace.pdf

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Old 07-17-2012, 12:06 AM   #2
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Nate,

Your post sparked my interest until you mentioned the BrewTroller.

I'm at a total loss with that. Sorry. I wish I could help.

P-J

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Old 07-17-2012, 08:37 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnatp2 View Post
Ok, so I'm sure this has some errors in it. But I'm hoping I'm at least close to getting everything right here.
I've been working on setting up a a control panel with the brains of a Opentroller DX1. I've stolen some ideas from other builds that I've been looking at and have compiled them into this.
-This is a 1 tier, 3 tank system
-2 heating elements (HLT and Kettle) and want to be able to run both at the same time
-a mixture of 2 way and 3 way valves to control all the flow
-4 temp probes
-2 pumps, 2 extra 120VAC sockets for future expansion if needed
-a ton of switches and LEDs for on/off/auto controlling all the valves, heating elements, pumps
-9 Lights indicating the current stage of the brewing process

My questions are:
1) Does the wiring look right?
Still getting started myself, but yes that will work... but see other comments below

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnatp2 View Post
2) I have a few circuit breakers in there (what sizes should i use), but are there any other means of protection I should be putting into the control box?
First, since this is a DYI job, look into getting a 50A GFI breaker to place in front or just after your wall receptacle as a safety and overall damage precaution. It'll kill your circut if any hot line grounds out and possibly save you and your equipment from major harm. This will also make it easy to put in a E-stop which just shorts a hot phase to ground through some big resistors (1kohm+) and causes the GFI to trip.

I would suggest placing a appropriately sized breaker in front of each expensive component in your diagram. I.e one for each pump and each element. For the 5V psu for the brewtroller you can get away with an inline fuse after the PSU as wall warts and AC--DC's are cheap.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gnatp2 View Post
3) I plan on having the SSR's, 3 level terminal block and circuit breakers mounted to DIN rails. With the SSR's on DIN rails, will heat be getting trapped inside the control panel?
DIN rails are awesome, but yes the SSR's will overheat that way. Get a large heatsink for both or individual ones are easy to find that are already sized for most SSR's. The heatsink should be external to the panel so cut a hole in the side and mount the SSR inside with the heatsink sticking out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnatp2 View Post
4) I haven't been able to find much documentation on the RGBIO8 boards. How do these get wired? Do you just hook up the swtiches on one side of the board, and the LED's to the other side? And then DX1 knows which position the switch is in and then controls the lights according to the switch position?

Thanks,
Nate
I don't know much specifically about this board, and it looks like since the brewtroller guys moved their website the links for manuals and schematics aren't working, so you might try calling them or emailing them
http://www.oscsys.com/store/product/1001707
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Old 07-17-2012, 11:41 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blauhung View Post
Still getting started myself, but yes that will work... but see other comments below
WOW. No errors! I am shocked!
I want to be 100% sure that I have the wires correct because the last thing I need is to fry a couple thousand dollars worth or equipment or myself.

Quote:
First, since this is a DYI job, look into getting a 50A GFI breaker to place in front or just after your wall receptacle as a safety and overall damage precaution. It'll kill your circut if any hot line grounds out and possibly save you and your equipment from major harm. This will also make it easy to put in a E-stop which just shorts a hot phase to ground through some big resistors (1kohm+) and causes the GFI to trip.

I would suggest placing a appropriately sized breaker in front of each expensive component in your diagram. I.e one for each pump and each element. For the 5V psu for the brewtroller you can get away with an inline fuse after the PSU as wall warts and AC--DC's are cheap.
Yes, I'm going to have my electrician install a new wall receptical from my main circuit breaker panel. I'll make sure he makes it GFI. Good suggestion.

I still need to research a bit more about E-stop. I'll look into that.



Quote:
DIN rails are awesome, but yes the SSR's will overheat that way. Get a large heatsink for both or individual ones are easy to find that are already sized for most SSR's. The heatsink should be external to the panel so cut a hole in the side and mount the SSR inside with the heatsink sticking out.
These are the SSR's I am getting. http://www.oscsys.com/store/product/1001674 They already have a heat sink on them, but I kinda suspected that the heat would still get trapped in the box. You think I just mount a couple more heat sinks on the top of the control panel itself? And could I just use some heat sink compound and glue them on or do I need to cut holes in the control panel? I was hoping not to so I could keep it all looking nice, but I want to put safety first.
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Old 07-17-2012, 06:58 PM   #5
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I've been thinking... (always dangerous)

Should I be using 10 gauge wiring as I indicated in my drawing? or since it is 50amps, should I be using 6 gauge? I'm a little confused as I have 2 hot lines to get up to 240 volts. I know the max with everything running will be a little under 50 amps, but I don't know if that means 25 amps for each hot line or 50 amps on each hot line? And if it is 50 amps for each hot, I'm guessing I need to bump up my SSRs to 50 amps?

Nate

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Old 07-17-2012, 09:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnatp2 View Post
I've been thinking... (always dangerous)

Should I be using 10 gauge wiring as I indicated in my drawing? or since it is 50amps, should I be using 6 gauge? I'm a little confused as I have 2 hot lines to get up to 240 volts. I know the max with everything running will be a little under 50 amps, but I don't know if that means 25 amps for each hot line or 50 amps on each hot line? And if it is 50 amps for each hot, I'm guessing I need to bump up my SSRs to 50 amps?

Nate
With the SSR you linked, yes the heat will stay in the box but in that case you can probably get away with just puting in a fan blowing on the SSR's and a vent on the other side of the case or some other configuration that exhchanges air with the outside and has cool air flowing across the SSR.

Also I just noticed that you have neutral going to your elements. They probably only have 2 terminals which will be just the 2 hot lines and don't need neutral.

as for wiring, think about it in terms of the element. one terminal gets phase 1, and the other gets phase 2. Each AC phase is off from the other by 180 degrees so when phase 1 is positive, phase 2 is negative.



this means that each time the amplitude of each phase is at its peak, you get full current to flow on both the phase 1 and phase 2 line, but this current then reverses again just a tad later. in the case of your elements that's just short of 20Amps. So if you have a 50Amp breaker, both your hot lines need to be able to take the full 50Amps as the breaker won't trip till it hits that

Your ground line should be never ever see the full 50Amps as the GFI should shut down at something on the order of 5mA, but as a safety precaution its probably best to be the same size.

The neutral on the other hand will be different as it will only ever be completing the circuit for a single phase (unless you hook something up really wrong), so it only needs to be sized big enough to accommodate all the current from all of your single phase breakers, but again in the interest of safety, might as well just have them all be 6 gauge.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:01 PM   #7
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The only thing I'm unsure about is the 3-way valve wiring. I thought you needed SPDT relay support for those. Do you plan on running them from the 8 port relay board in the schematic?

S-

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Old 07-18-2012, 09:23 PM   #8
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The only thing I'm unsure about is the 3-way valve wiring. I thought you needed SPDT relay support for those. Do you plan on running them from the 8 port relay board in the schematic?

S-
I was planning on controling the valves directly by the outputs of the brewtroller. There would be 3 wires for the valves. One would be DC+ all the time (purple wire in my diagram in post 1), one would be DC- (grey wire) and the third would be a DC+ trigger (blue) wire that would come straight from the brewtroller and move the ball valve to its secondary position.

BUT I think you might be right. I found the wiring schematic for these valves and I think I might have this setup incorrectly.

Here it is below. Let me know if you agree (I think you're right)... And any ideas on how to get around this? I guess I could just get more relay boards in there but I'd rather try to utilize the DX1's outputs directly from the board.
b3wiringkldvalves.jpg  
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:35 PM   #9
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If you haven't purchased your relay boards yet, you could get the 8 relay SPDT board and wire your 3 way valves to that board. Your pumps could only use one side of the relay. I am ready to start building now, but I have the BT4.0 with the 16 relay SPDT board. I think this DX1 is much cleaner and a more streamlined system.

S-

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Old 07-19-2012, 02:35 AM   #10
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So I've made some necessary changes and here's what I've come up with:
-10g wire changed to 6 gauge
-Upgraded SSR's to 50amps
-Removed circuit breakers after main inlet relay. I figure there is no need for a huge circuit breaker here since I'll have a 50amp circuit breaker in my main house panel
- Removed incorrect neutral lines from heating elements
- Instead of using the 12 output lines directly from the Brewtroller DX1 to the valves, the output lines now will power brew stage LEDs. (The LEDs will show you which stage in the brewing process you are as you can see from my front panel layout attachment in original post). 2 DX1 output lines still control the SSRs
- 2 8 port relay boards will control the valves and the 2 pumps and 2 extra outlets.
- Added E-Stop button before power key switch. Does this look like the right location for it in the system?

How does this look now? Any more recommendations?



Thank you!
Nate

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