120v on 220v element?

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hatrickwah

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I am hoping the electric brew rig gurus can help me here.
Yesterdays brew started with an excessive propane bill, therefore the wife and I both agree, electric brewing is in our future. The problem I have however, is that what I plan to ultimately build is a little steep on the price right now. I want to go with a BCS build based on OhioEd's panel, but will probably use Tiber_brew's kettle design. I already have the keggles built and am using them on gas right now.
Can someone tell me how to wire a 220v element, 5500w element to a 40a SSR that is controlled by my spare PID controller? I plan on changing my BK over first due to issues with the propane burner. I will ultimately go to 220 with it, but today that card is not available.
 
Sorry, I'm bad at naming threads. I have 120v now and hope to be moving in the near future to where I will have 220v available.
I've read Kal's site over numerous times. Read Tiber_brew's a few, and just went through most of Ohio's. The problem is they are all 220 setups that I am aiming for, but need to take baby steps towards.
My plan for now is to buy the 220 element for my BK and wire it up, but run only 120 for now, and go to 220 when we move.
 
You won't be able to run that 240V element off 120V. Sure you can't get 240V to the location? Many ways to skin a cat!

Elements are pretty cheap, so you could always install a 120V element and change it to 240V later. But, then you have to consider that when building your control panel.
 
I thought I had read in a few other threads that it was possible. The resulting wattage is obviously less, in the neighborhood of 1500w. Only problem is no one seems to say to wire it.

Running 220 isn't really an option since the builder of our home cheaped on the electrical. I maxed out our panel when I added 2 circuits.
 
220 Volt elements on 120 work fine. You will get 25% or so of the power. So a 6000 watt element will net you 1500.
 
Okay, I may be wrong with the element, I will defer to my colleagues.

But, tell me about your panel, how many amps is your service and let's see a photo of that panel. You may be able to run a sub panel, or install quad/skinny breakers to free up some space!
 
220 Volt elements on 120 work fine. You will get 25% or so of the power. So a 6000 watt element will net you 1500.

I haven't tried it, but how do you wire them? Since there are quite a few of us that are only switching a single leg of a 220V element, it's obvious that the element isn't active unless both hot legs are active.

I'm guessing you pigtail the 120V hot line so that it's connected to both legs of the element?

Personally, I'd just get a 120V element for now and swap in a 220V later. They're only $20...
 
I wanted to just see what my options were, because I have to somehow sell the idea to the wife, at least the initial upgrade. I've been testing and tossing aside a few things recently with my brewery build, so the less I would throw away the better. I'll see what 120v options there are for low watt density elements then. I'm hesitant about the element in contact with my wort and the off flavors that could result, from what I've been reading it sounds like the ULWD elements are the best for the least impact. The only other worry I might have is whether or not the 220v element will fit the same hole as the 110v element, it would really suck to have to cut the hole and everything, only to have to redo everything down the road.
 
If you cant get a 220v main line to the element then run a high amp extension cord from a separate 120v circuit on the other phase side of your panel. Wire the neutrals together and one of the blacks as the red. It will work... Thats how I set it up for a friend of mine.
 
I'm hesitant about the element in contact with my wort and the off flavors that could result, from what I've been reading it sounds like the ULWD elements are the best for the least impact. The only other worry I might have is whether or not the 220v element will fit the same hole as the 110v element, it would really suck to have to cut the hole and everything, only to have to redo everything down the road.

I went with ULWD for mine, but from everything I've read on here noone has reported any charring with LWD or even HWD elements when used in a BK.
Just get a 1" NPT element (1 1/4" hole) they'll be interchangeable.

Look at the list of screw-in elements here.. top 4 are 120V:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html#tiny
 
Purple, that was a thought I had. I have two 15a circuits for sure in my garage, the dedicated one for my freezer (why I'll never know), they should have spent the money on some 20a circuitry. Only problem will be just that, I don't think 2 15a circuits will be adequate, or will they?
 
Depends on what wattage of elements you go with. You should check the gauge of wire on your outlets in your garage to see if you could go up a breaker and still keep the circuit safe.
 
Not sure if anyone answered the original question of how to wire the element: if not here is youir answer, if you already got it disregard

120V hot --> SSR LINE T1 | T2 --> Element T1 | T2 --> 120V Neutral

Ground the whole thing as you normally would. When you go to 220V just swap the line Neutral for the second hot leg.

Two 110V outlets on different poles can give you the 220V but I won't recommend it as you now have two separate voltage sources and independant breakers, I also can't guarantee the grounding or neutral potential acurrately across two separate branch circuits.
As mentioned a 220V element will give you 25% rated power on a 110V circuit, it will also draw half the amperage. The elements are a resistive load (reactance is nearly 0), therefore P = V^2 / R. R is fixed for a given element. Another form of the power equation is P = I • V, where I = V / R. As you can see halving the voltage gives 1/4 power at 1/2 Current.

Hope that is of some utility to you.
 
Power = V^2/R

An element rated for a 220 line will run at 1/4 of the power rating if connected to a 120 line. A 4000 Watt 220 element will run at 1000 Watts on a 120 line. The real issue is current. You need to look at your breakers to see how many amps you can run on a line. I think the rule of thumb is to run at 75% of the breaker rating. Someone should be able to verify or correct this.

On a 20 amp breaker:
You want to run at about 15 amps
Power = V*I = 120 * 15 = 1800 Watts
The equivalent 220 line rating would be 1800*4 = 7200 Watts
 
Why F^ck around?! Show me a picture of your panel, and then we will have a correct solution for you.
 
A picture of the panel is not going to tell you the gauge of wire running to the outlets in his garage. If you can see the difference in 14ga and 12ga wire through a picture then good job. The only thing a picture will show is if the outlets are on 2 separate phases. You are correct ITSME but why pay for an element that you will only possibly get 25% out of. In the end it may just be cheaper and safer to get a 220 line run.
 
^^
You're missing the point. I am trying to get the guy a 240V and need to know what service size and panel layout + what his other loads are there. THEN, we can come up with a good solution without f^ckin' around by tapping one leg and the other. Do it right.

Sheesh, I see this ALL the time with floor refurbishing companies that try and tap (2) alternate lines and wonder why their sanders fail.
 
Well, at the moment, its 14 ga wire on a 15 amp breaker. I've wanted to upgrade the breaker, but don't dare. I bought this house brand new and never will buy new again. The builder even put my lights on the same gfci as the rest of the 2 whole outlets in my garage. I turn on the vacuum to clean out my MLT and pray that I don't pop the gfci. My wife and I should be moving in the next 2 months, so not going to invest in any improvements on this house anymore. I was just looking to begin going electric because my BK burner is wasting money on me. The plan is to go 220 in the end, so I wouldn't be wasting money on a minimally used element.
 
Here's the box BTW. I can add a whopping one more circuit to it, and that probably would be a bad idea. There's a new meter and additional breakers outside, plus the a/c box that was run direct from the meter.

ForumRunner_20110306_201218.jpg
 
Well then I would say wait until you move and then build a rig to run off of a properly wired 220v line. And SPARKY you were thinking the same as me and my brain just decided to F^ck up on me. Good call on wanting to check the overall existing loads.
 
I am working on the assumption that the current 120 line will be upgraded to a 220 line in the future. This is just how I plan my projects. What will be the possible future upgrades? Is there anything that I can do now to make what I have upgradeable. If the difference in price is very small, which it is with a 120 and 220 element, I go that route. This is just my method of reasoning.

And... I was just trying to answer the question. Thanks for confirming the 75%. I love being right. It seems to be less and less often anymore.
 
If you cant get a 220v main line to the element then run a high amp extension cord from a separate 120v circuit on the other phase side of your panel. Wire the neutrals together and one of the blacks as the red. It will work... Thats how I set it up for a friend of mine.

Oh lord. Flaming armchair electrician sh*tstorm in 3...2...1...
 
I'll definitely be doing 220v when we move, in fact the wife is all for building a designated brewery room/lean to/something so she won't have to wrestle with all my gear floating around the house. I'm thinking I will probably just suck it up, grab a 120v element with the same threading size so that all I will have to do is swap out the element down the road. I'll pick up the necessary wire and plugs for a 220v setup, and just wire it in as 120v for now. I just hope the 1000w or 1500w element can get the 10 gallon batch to boil in a decent amount of time.

Am I good on my math in saying that a 25a SSR (currently have) would run a 1500w element running at 12.5a?
 
Seriously, it'll take you probably two months just to order all the parts/pieces, build a control panel, drill the holes in your kettles, wire everything up, etc.. If you're moving in two months, make a detailed plan and start ordering parts for a 220V system. By the time you're done putting it together you'll be moved into your new place.
 
I'll definitely be doing 220v when we move, in fact the wife is all for building a designated brewery room/lean to/something so she won't have to wrestle with all my gear floating around the house. I'm thinking I will probably just suck it up, grab a 120v element with the same threading size so that all I will have to do is swap out the element down the road. I'll pick up the necessary wire and plugs for a 220v setup, and just wire it in as 120v for now. I just hope the 1000w or 1500w element can get the 10 gallon batch to boil in a decent amount of time.

Am I good on my math in saying that a 25a SSR (currently have) would run a 1500w element running at 12.5a?

Check the voltage rating to see if it will last through the voltage upgrade (should be rated for 400V or more for a 240V service)

the 25A rating will run a 25A resistive load, assuming you have it properly heat sinked and all junctions are properly wetted. You can always run a lower current load with the device. Although there is a sort of theoretical minimum load, below which the resistance is so low that the device will not properly turn off. In this case you just need to add a resistive shunt circuit to clamp the output.
 
Just FYI - I use a 40A 600V SSR to run my 5500W element from a two pole single phase 220VAC source. I am using a Crydom at the moment although i also have an Ebay china SSR that has been tested. I overspec'd because the thermal dissipation challenges increase with switching rates and I didn't want to worry about junction temperatures.

Oh and you would cook 14ga wire if you tried to jerryrig a 2-pole service for this project.
 
Turns out, I mixed up my SSRs, the 25a one is running my keezer. Guess I'll have to order one or 2 40a ssrs anyway. I'll probably get the ones from Auber since I also need to order an RTD or other temperature probe to attach the PID to my kettle.
With any luck, I could pull the few pieces I need together pretty quick, all ready have a control panel, but I will probably drag my feet for a while to see what happens in the near future before putting time and money into this.
Thanks for the help.
 
the e-bay china ones get to me in a week, I was surprised when that showed up before alot of the other stuff I ordered that didn't have to cross the Pacific
 
the e-bay china ones get to me in a week, I was surprised when that showed up before alot of the other stuff I ordered that didn't have to cross the Pacific

Yeah, great price too. The Crydom equivalent is an order or magnitude more expensive, and works exactly the same (actually the china specials have a little light on them that tell you when they are on, Crydom does not.)
 
Maybe I should have just lead with the question, can it boil the beer. Would have saved lots of time. I won't bother with two elements, especially since I plan on going to 220v anyway. Just now I have more of a reason to push the wife into it.
 
haha, sounds like you're coming around. 220V is probably mandatory for 10G. 1500W is probably a struggle to boil 5G without a ton of insulation.
 
Just a side comment about the suggestion to try and obtain 240V by tapping two separate 120V circuits that are derived from opposite hot lines in the panel...

If you are using GFCI to protect yourself (and you really should be doing this), then that suggestion will get you nowhere. As soon as you fire up the thing, the GFCI circuitry on those 120V circuits will not be happy and will shut down the system.
 
220 Volt elements on 120 work fine. You will get 25% or so of the power. So a 6000 watt element will net you 1500.
How do you wire a 240 element for 120. Do you need a neutral wire. I want to use 2 switches for a 240 element. Both one for full power and one on for 1/4 power to maintain a boil.
 
How do you wire a 240 element for 120. Do you need a neutral wire. I want to use 2 switches for a 240 element. Both one for full power and one on for 1/4 power to maintain a boil.
You do need neutral to run an element at 120V, whether it's a 240V or 120V rated element. You need a switch and a relay to go between 240V and 120V, or else you need a SPDT, 30A rated switch. Here's a design that shows how to do the switching:

DSPR120 DV-100 1-Pump 1-Aux Dual Voltage Input Output.PNG

It also shows how to wire a pigtail to allow the control panel to be plugged into a 120V outlet. If this pigtail is used, the element will run on 120V no matter which position the voltage selector switch is in.

Brew on :mug:
 

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