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Old 02-14-2013, 10:43 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by igliashon View Post
So, what do you know about food chemistry that makes you so confident that the exact same flavors as wheat and barley can be achieved with gluten-free grains? I don't have a background in food chemistry, but it seems like an exact replication would be quite difficult, if not impossible.

Also, how much time have you spent reviewing the existing literature? There have been several papers written about the suitability of various malted grains for producing beer, including optimized malting and mashing procedures for them to achieve maximum extract potential. I strongly suggest doing your "further research" before conducting more of your own trials...you might save a lot of time and money that way! Goodness knows I could have saved myself some trouble in the past by doing my homework....
I have spent a about a year and half reviewing literature on the subject and all of my reading (thus far) led me to conclude that no single GF grain would be able to cut it for a mash, I have been able to find no literature thus far that provides a satisfactory answer for why a blend of GF grains wouldn't be able to replicate the flavors of abarley mash. In so far as my knowledge of food chemistry is concerned, there is one single underlying reaction that occurs throughout a myriad of foods, and always makes them taste better. The reaction to which I am referring to of course, is the Mailliard Browning Reaction. Mailliard Browning occurs whenever reducing sugars (glucose, maltose, galactose but NOT fructose) come into contact with free amino nitrogen ends and combine to form complex flavor molecules in the presence of heat. This is why steaks turn brown and taste better after they've been cooked. Why bronzed melted cheese is prized on pizza, why when you bake bread you whole house fills with the aroma. And its also the primary driver of flavor reactions in beer, melanoidin malt is an excellent example. Melanoidin malt is produced under circumstances that maximize mailliard browning reactions, which means tons of free ended amino nitrogen, tons of reducing sugar, and tons of heat. Every where these three things are found we have mailliard browning, so its no small step for me to suspect that the same things can happen in other things that don't contain gluten. I also don't think SPR-GRN was being rude, the whole point of this thread is to motivate me to provide physical evidence that supports or discredits my assumptions, not what others have to say, as such I invite all to try and replicate what I am doing if they feel my experimental methods are flawed in some way.


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Old 02-15-2013, 01:23 AM   #12
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Fascinating bit about maillard reactions, and also your previous bit about FAN during fermentation (and insufficiency of it casuing the production of acetaldehyde). That explains why a few folks here have had success reducing the off-taste of sorghum by adding DAP to the kettle. However, in my experience, lighter beers--wherein the malted barley has been subjected to comparatively little Mailliard browning--are no easier to mimic than darker beers; in fact, the converse is true (at least in my experience), darker beers are easier to mimic than lighter beers. So there's got to be more to it than just Mailliard browning.

So, has your research suggested any promising combinations in particular? I'd think that by studying the unique pros and cons of each grain, you could figure out how to combine them to balance the cons of one with the pros of another--find a grain with low DP but high FAN to combine with a grain with high DP but low FAN (or something along those lines).

BTW, I'm about to begin conducting some research of my own using a combination of malted buckwheat and roasted chestnuts. I will be producing some crystal-malt, some munich or vienna, and probably also some roasted unmalted buckwheat. You may be interested in my results.



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Old 02-15-2013, 02:32 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by SPR-GRN View Post
I don't mean to sound trollish here or anything, but I honestly don't believe you can make a GF beer that tastes exactly like a barley or wheat based beer. Can you -make a GF beer that tastes really good? I'm sure you can. Can you make a GF beer that tastes better than a wheat or barley based beer? hey I don't think I've had a beer thats worse than Schlitz or Steel Reserve so I think you've got a chance Seriously though, this thread just reminded me of the time a vegan told me "you won't even be able to tell these ribs aren't pork!" you can probably guess how they tasted.. any who, I wish you luck in your brewing adventures; ignore anything you find to be unhelpful.
I agree with you that a veggie burger does not taste like beef, but I don't think it is as far fetched that GF beer can taste like regular beer. Millet is a lot closer to barley than soy is to animal flesh.
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:01 PM   #14
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I don't think you are being a 'Troll' but I do think you are being rude. Those people live that way by choice. We don't. We are just trying to make best of a bad situation. I have made beers that taste very similar to barley based beers and actually taste better. Although just because a beer is not made from barley, doesn't mean it is not a beer. Africans have made beer from Sorghum for centuries. The Chinese have probably made it from Buckwheat for centuries. Even your Mister Washington I believe made it from corn? So you see calling something a beer does not mean it has to be made exclusively from barley, wheat or rye. But saying it is not a beer because it is not made from those ingredients, and saying it would not be very good is very closed minded. I only ask that if you are going to comment in this forum, that it be productive, not insulting.
At no time did I say that GF beer wasn't beer, hence the reason I typed "GF beer" every time in my post. "beer" in my mind can be made from a variety of ingredients, and the only "law" I'm aware of that dictates what beer must be made of is the German beer purity law Reinheitsgebot; but I sure don't follow that.
I wasn't saying GF beer is not beer, I was saying that I don't think a GF beer can be made to taste exactly like a barley/wheat beer. I've had GF beer (of course only what is commercially available) to me, it did not match the flavor of any barley/wheat beer I've had. I should have been more specific as well, it's not just the flavor, it's also the body, aroma, mouth feel; all aspects of drinking a beer that I refer to when i say "taste".

Example: Pepsi doesn't even taste like Pepsi anymore, corn syrup, although also a simple sugar, does not taste like cane sugar; no matter how Pepsi tweaks the formula, new Pepsi will not taste like Pepsi; personally I prefer new Pepsi over old Pepsi as I grew up with it, but it does not make them the same. Much in the same way that a GF beer has the potential to taste better than a barley/wheat beer, I don't think they will ever taste the same.

I assume when you said "those people" you meant vegans, and although many do live that way by choice, there are some that have a medical condition that makes the digestion of meat unbearable. Similarly, there are people who can process gluten, but choose not to consume it for a myriad of reasons; I don't want you to get the impression that everyone who drinks GF beer has celiac or a gluten intolerance. I personally want to dabble in GF beers for a couple reasons; firstly I do know someone with Celiac disease that started as a gluten intolerance when they were younger and progressed quickly, they loved beer before their doctor told them not to drink it anymore. Secondly, a person I work with does not consume gluten because he read some research about it's damaging effects to the human body.
Both of these people have tried GF beer and found it lacking, I figured as a homebrewer I could give them a hand by trying out a batch or two, which will hopefully not have that sorghum twang to it, or at least have it muted enough that it can be ignored.

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I agree with you that a veggie burger does not taste like beef, but I don't think it is as far fetched that GF beer can taste like regular beer. Millet is a lot closer to barley than soy is to animal flesh.
Very true statement, however Pork/chicken/turkey are much closer to beef than soy is; I still haven't come across a turkey burger or pork/turkey meatloaf that tastes like beef.

I appreciate the effort MobCraftBeer is putting forth, and look forward to the results; if a GF beer can be produced that is close to the flavor of a barley/wheat beer someone with a background in food chemistry will have the best chance.

again, I wish you all luck in your brewing adventures; ignore anything you find to be unhelpful.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:19 PM   #15
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I just feel compelled to jump in and post to this thread. I have been playing around with gluten free home brewing for about two and a half years. I have given bottles of my beer to a couple of brewmasters I know without telling them exactly what they were tasting. Neither had any clue that the beer was anything other than regular beer. One even accused me of being a liar when I revealed that the beer was gluten free.

I have been so encouraged by the results, that I filed a patent application for my process and formed a company called Quinoa Malt and Beverages, LLC. We formed 3 DBA's, q-Malting, q-Brewing, and q-Distilling. The names give away our gluten free ingredients and what we plan on manufacturing.

At this time, we are working with a consulting company to help us put together a business plan so we can go out and raise enough funds to realize the dream. We probably are 18 - 24 months away from being in production, but our beer is amazing and will blow the gluten free community away...

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Old 02-15-2013, 05:59 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by SPR-GRN View Post
Very true statement, however Pork/chicken/turkey are much closer to beef than soy is; I still haven't come across a turkey burger or pork/turkey meatloaf that tastes like beef.

I appreciate the effort MobCraftBeer is putting forth, and look forward to the results; if a GF beer can be produced that is close to the flavor of a barley/wheat beer someone with a background in food chemistry will have the best chance.

again, I wish you all luck in your brewing adventures; ignore anything you find to be unhelpful.
There are lots of other animals than pigs, chickens, turkeys and cows. I know for a fact that moose taste likes beef. Horse is supposed to taste like beef, but sweeter. Frog legs taste like chicken. It's very possilbe that there is some grain, seed, or nut that you aren't familiar with that tastes like barley. Or as the OP suggested, it might me a mixture of grains to get close.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:49 PM   #17
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Igliashon, I'd be interested to hear/se your results on chestnuts as I'll be doing mashing experiments with malted corn and barley (control) soon. The main reason I will choose chestnuts is because they have the most potential from what I've seen to be able to mimic flavors found in beer. Also in regards to your post, the reason it is easier to replicate darker beers is because darker beers use darker roasted malts as opposed to kilned or toasted malts. Darker beers rely on mild to intense carbonization (roasting) of the malt to impart flavor and color more than they rely on Mailliard browning reactions, sure some of the components are still present, but not in nearly the amounts you see in toasted or kilned malts. I have come up with a list of grains/nuts that I will start experimenting with based on reasearch and regional availability (why Import Quinoa from south america when there are probably just as many useful adjuncts in your area?). This list is as follows:

Corn: Floriani Red Flint variety
Chestnuts
Hazelnuts
Wild Rice (hey its the upper midwest)
Buckwheat (have already tried Malting it and Kilning it, and was at first not impressed with the flavor and the aroma, am going to revisit buckwheat again, this time more scrupulously.)

So all in all here are my current plans and hopefully will be realized in my next post:
Have ordered Floriani Red Flint corn for experimental purposes of flavor and diastatic power trials (my experience with plain'ole field corn leaves something to be desired, but there's potential nonetheless)
Have ordered chestnuts for side by side comparisons of Corn Malt vs. Barley malt mashing
Will Start Malting my remaining stockpile of Buckwheat, being very careful to control and monitor malting and kilning conditions

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Old 02-16-2013, 12:41 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by q-Brewing View Post
I just feel compelled to jump in and post to this thread. I have been playing around with gluten free home brewing for about two and a half years. I have given bottles of my beer to a couple of brewmasters I know without telling them exactly what they were tasting. Neither had any clue that the beer was anything other than regular beer. One even accused me of being a liar when I revealed that the beer was gluten free.

I have been so encouraged by the results, that I filed a patent application for my process and formed a company called Quinoa Malt and Beverages, LLC. We formed 3 DBA's, q-Malting, q-Brewing, and q-Distilling. The names give away our gluten free ingredients and what we plan on manufacturing.

At this time, we are working with a consulting company to help us put together a business plan so we can go out and raise enough funds to realize the dream. We probably are 18 - 24 months away from being in production, but our beer is amazing and will blow the gluten free community away...
I'm looking forward to trying your gf beer, I would prefer not to wait 24 months so if you would be willing to share one of your recipes and your process I'd love yo give it a go, obviously I understand if you don't want to as it has become a business venture for you. Either way I'm glad to hear you've come across a recipe and a process that works.

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Originally Posted by BBBF View Post
There are lots of other animals than pigs, chickens, turkeys and cows. I know for a fact that moose taste likes beef. Horse is supposed to taste like beef, but sweeter. Frog legs taste like chicken. It's very possilbe that there is some grain, seed, or nut that you aren't familiar with that tastes like barley. Or as the OP suggested, it might me a mixture of grains to get close.
Yes there are many other animals beside the few examples I gave, I was simply providing readily available (supermarket) examples; having previously lived in Vermont I've eaten my fair share of wild game, however I have yet to come across an animal that tastes exactly like beef; true animals taste similar to other animals, I've also been told that alligator tastes like chicken but have yet to try it for myself.
Even when you compare wild game to farm raised game the flavor is different (eg. Turkey). When you compare very closely related breeds of foul, the flavor is different. Is Cornish hen an acceptable substitute for chicken? yes but they don't taste exactly the same. If you served me Cornish hen on a plate next to chicken on a plate (assuming just meat) would I be able to tell you which was chicken and which was Cornish hen? no I couldn't; however would there be a noticeable flavor difference? Yes there would.
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Primary: Malbec
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Bottles: King Czar Stout, Wee Heavy Scotch Ale, Christmas Lager, 2 buck chuck wine
Aging: RIP RIP Stout (Rest In Peace Russian Imperial Stout)
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Updated: 4-4-2014

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Old 02-16-2013, 06:26 PM   #19
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Bbbf-

I'm curious what your startup costs look like. I am on the opposite side of the road from you. I have investors but not a final product.

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Old 02-17-2013, 12:13 AM   #20
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My what?



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