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Old 04-06-2007, 10:30 PM   #1
casebrew
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Default Gluten Free Brewing- DPP-IV enzymes?

I think I've turned gluten- intolerant. One bottle of my Fat Ass Tired even gave me cramps yesterday. I sure feel better in lots of ways when I steer clear of wheat, etc.

Anyways, I take some special enzymes called "DPP-IV", that break down the specific amino acid chains in gluten. I've looking on the net for my home brew options, and contemplating malting sorghum and mashing with a protein rest for it's enzymes to work. It occured to me, why not try some of those DPP-IV enzymes in the mash of a barley based beer? Some brewers use amylase for sugars, why not use DPP for gluten?

What would be the concerns of a low-protein beer? I think the amino acids would still be in there. Is protein a requisite in beer? Head is from Malto-dextrin?

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So far, I've had more experience thinking than I've had brewing....you don't think they are mutually exclusive, do you?

72 batches so far,
48 wine, mostly Loquat, peach, plum, prickly pear
23 beers and ciders
1 sauerkraut
1 Tequila, from a prickly pear wine experiment that didn't work. I call it "Prickly Heat"

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Old 04-11-2007, 04:30 PM   #2
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I just started an all-grain Gluten-Free beer for my father on Easter (my 3rd beer) which we had to malt sorghum and buckwheat for. Most of the information I found for the recipe and process was from this site. I don't remember if he goes into specifics about those enzymes, but I found it to be a wealth of info all around.

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Old 04-12-2007, 03:33 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casebrew
I think I've turned gluten- intolerant. One bottle of my Fat Ass Tired even gave me cramps yesterday. I sure feel better in lots of ways when I steer clear of wheat, etc.

Anyways, I take some special enzymes called "DPP-IV", that break down the specific amino acid chains in gluten. I've looking on the net for my home brew options, and contemplating malting sorghum and mashing with a protein rest for it's enzymes to work. It occured to me, why not try some of those DPP-IV enzymes in the mash of a barley based beer? Some brewers use amylase for sugars, why not use DPP for gluten?

What would be the concerns of a low-protein beer? I think the amino acids would still be in there. Is protein a requisite in beer? Head is from Malto-dextrin?
I would have thought recombinant DPP-IV enzyme wasn't cheap i don't know though not been gluten intolerant (i know the recombinant stuff thats bought in for the lab certainly isn't cheap).
I think the pH will not suit the enzyme its optimum pH is about 8 and it is
essentially inactive at or below pH 5. Also it starts to quickly degrade at the typical mashing temp of 65C. I suppose you could try adding it in a protein rest 50C (will be relatively stable and working almost flat out), but personally i think you'd be wasting your time because of the low pH.

As you've pointed out amylase works but its very pH tolerant and an all together much simpler enzyme as apposed to DPP-IV which is a protease (evolution has usually set up all sorts of checks and balances to stop these class of enzymes doing their thing randomly).
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:07 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delboy
I would have thought recombinant DPP-IV enzyme wasn't cheap i don't know though not been gluten intolerant (i know the recombinant stuff thats bought in for the lab certainly isn't cheap).
I think the pH will not suit the enzyme its optimum pH is about 8 and it is
essentially inactive at or below pH 5. Also it starts to quickly degrade at the typical mashing temp of 65C. I suppose you could try adding it in a protein rest 50C (will be relatively stable and working almost flat out), but personally i think you'd be wasting your time because of the low pH.

As you've pointed out amylase works but its very pH tolerant and an all together much simpler enzyme as apposed to DPP-IV which is a protease (evolution has usually set up all sorts of checks and balances to stop these class of enzymes doing their thing randomly).
The temp thing I read about. I figured cool the wrt, do another 'protein rest'. That would let the natural enzymes do their maximum break down of the gluten. Then let a small amount of DPP_IV work. The pH makes it beyond use. Hm, does that mean that it has to work in the stomach before acid secretion? That would make some sense in light of my stomach 'cramps'.

I believe the stuff from the health food store is from a mold- Aspergillus? Hmm, Doesn't recombinant technology usually makes stuff by bucketloads? Like in a bucket fermenter making DPP-IV instead of alcohol? But maybe you need lab grade stuff? And maybe you are working on the immune/serum side of that enzyme rather than digestive?

Thanks for the input, that's exactly why I asked.
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So far, I've had more experience thinking than I've had brewing....you don't think they are mutually exclusive, do you?

72 batches so far,
48 wine, mostly Loquat, peach, plum, prickly pear
23 beers and ciders
1 sauerkraut
1 Tequila, from a prickly pear wine experiment that didn't work. I call it "Prickly Heat"

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Old 04-12-2007, 05:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somecallmebub
I just started an all-grain Gluten-Free beer for my father on Easter (my 3rd beer) which we had to malt sorghum and buckwheat for. Most of the information I found for the recipe and process was from this site. I don't remember if he goes into specifics about those enzymes, but I found it to be a wealth of info all around.
The enzyme is called 'Glutenase' er something, from the health food store. Helps for stuff like gravy, with a little bit of gluten in it.


I picked up a sixer of Red Bridge gf beer from AB. Not too bad. But at $8/6 compared to 35 cents for a homebrew....

Apparently, Briess makes Sorghum extract, at $3 per pound. But if you have to malt and roast flavor grains, why not make base malt too?

Malting your own ought to get the price down to pennies. Did you get the grains at the feed store? Roast them for more maltiness? Biscuit roast? It would be easier for a Hop head, if all you want is grapefruit flavored beer, but I'm a Maltist...

Please let me know how it comes out.
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So far, I've had more experience thinking than I've had brewing....you don't think they are mutually exclusive, do you?

72 batches so far,
48 wine, mostly Loquat, peach, plum, prickly pear
23 beers and ciders
1 sauerkraut
1 Tequila, from a prickly pear wine experiment that didn't work. I call it "Prickly Heat"

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Old 04-12-2007, 06:19 PM   #6
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Here's a link to the most recipes I've found on one site: <http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Recipes/> scroll to section 14. I don't know if he malts his own, or if there is better availability in Oz.

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So far, I've had more experience thinking than I've had brewing....you don't think they are mutually exclusive, do you?

72 batches so far,
48 wine, mostly Loquat, peach, plum, prickly pear
23 beers and ciders
1 sauerkraut
1 Tequila, from a prickly pear wine experiment that didn't work. I call it "Prickly Heat"

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Old 04-12-2007, 09:05 PM   #7
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How about an experiment with an existing homebrew? Just add DPP IV to a couple bottles you already have. Uncap them, add the enzyme & re-cap. You wouldn't need much enzyme and you would know the results within a week.

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Old 04-12-2007, 09:28 PM   #8
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Sorry my mistake i was quoting the properties of the human form of the enzyme the mold version is much more tolerant of pH.
It will function at the pHs found in the mash, so i'd say its worth giving it a go. I would still go with a 50C step for it because while it'll be degrading it'll be very active at this temp and you only want it to do its bizz for a short while anyway.

The stuff we have in the lab is the human form (i think don't personally work on this particular protease someone else does) and highly purified so thats why its pretty damn expensive (unfortunately only some proteins which usually tend to be simple like insulin can be mass produced they way you are talking about some just need a mammalian environment, you'd need to get into transgenic animals etc to mass produce them). Where as by the sounds of the dietary supplements it is extrated from the mold so it should be relatively cheap as you've already said.

Just out of interest how is it stored, if its just sitting on the shelves i'd be surprised if it had any activity, it it comes from the fridge it probably has a sporting chance and if it lives in the freezer it should definetly have activity.

Anyway good luck, hope it works for you (you could maybe market it if it does)

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Old 04-18-2007, 04:46 PM   #9
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I found this: <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=161906 54&dopt=Abstract>

magine that, the National Institute of Health helping homebrewers...

It seems that the same protein in gluten is the one respnsible for chill haze. They added an enzyme that broke down the particular protein, and eliminated chill haze. It did not affect the head.

Now to find the enzyme....

ETA, apparently, the Aspergilus enzyme is active at pH 4-5, and can withstand as low as 2 without degrading.

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So far, I've had more experience thinking than I've had brewing....you don't think they are mutually exclusive, do you?

72 batches so far,
48 wine, mostly Loquat, peach, plum, prickly pear
23 beers and ciders
1 sauerkraut
1 Tequila, from a prickly pear wine experiment that didn't work. I call it "Prickly Heat"


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Old 10-17-2009, 12:06 AM   #10
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Did you ever experiment with glutenase? I've been thinking of doing a gluten free beer for my sister-in-law who is gluten intolerant.

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