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Old 05-27-2013, 10:26 PM   #11
igliashon
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Originally Posted by SouthernGorilla View Post
Interesting. I would have expected prolonged boiling to be more effective at breaking down starches and proteins.
If prolonged boiling could break down starches and proteins into useable form for fermentation, why would anyone bother malting and mashing grains when they could just boil the piss out of them? Boiling can break down cell walls and solubilize the starches, but that's as far as it takes them. Boil all you like, you won't get the starches to break down into sugars or free up the proteins for yeast metabolism.

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Still, I plan to try it myself. My grains are just adjuncts for my meads. So peak efficiency is not much of a concern
Well, I have to wonder why you'd bother with the trouble of doing the whole mashing process if you're not concerned with getting fermentables out of it. Why not just steep the grains? I mean, you're welcome to give it a try, but I'm not sure what you're really hoping to get out of it that you couldn't get with just a simple steep. Maybe try steeping first to see if it gives you what you're after, before trying something more elaborate?
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:09 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by igliashon View Post
If prolonged boiling could break down starches and proteins into useable form for fermentation, why would anyone bother malting and mashing grains when they could just boil the piss out of them? Boiling can break down cell walls and solubilize the starches, but that's as far as it takes them. Boil all you like, you won't get the starches to break down into sugars or free up the proteins for yeast metabolism.
I never said it would break them down into fermentable sugars. I said it could break them down so the amylase enzyme could work on them. You even said yourself that you've done it and got 45% efficiency.



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Originally Posted by igliashon View Post
Well, I have to wonder why you'd bother with the trouble of doing the whole mashing process if you're not concerned with getting fermentables out of it. Why not just steep the grains? I mean, you're welcome to give it a try, but I'm not sure what you're really hoping to get out of it that you couldn't get with just a simple steep. Maybe try steeping first to see if it gives you what you're after, before trying something more elaborate?
The idea would be to do a head-to-head comparison between mashed and steeped versions of the same grain to see what the difference really is. The process of mashing, even if it is just boiling and adding enzyme, has to alter the flavor profile. The only way to know for sure is to try and see. Why did you try it instead of just steeping?

And apparently dry heat does break starches into simpler sugars. So roasting grains before boiling them in a cereal mash should produce at least some fermentable sugar along with plenty of sugars for the amylase to work on. Why don't people do this already? Tradition. Plus the normal way is probably the only way to get the right flavor profiles for traditional recipes. But if I can produce a potable beverage without having to go to the trouble of malting gluten-free grains or the expense and hassle of finding and buying malted gluten-free grains then I will. But I'll never know if it's possible if I don't try it for myself. Because what you look for in a drink is likely completely different from what I look for. So I can't just rely on your opinion of what's worthwhile or not.
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Old 05-28-2013, 02:33 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by igliashon

Yes, that should work just fine. Haven't tried it, but IIRC there are people here who do use just amylase to boost the efficiency when mashing with malted GF grains. Just make sure NOT to cereal mash first, and instead do an infusion or decoction mash, so that you don't destroy the enzymes of the grains.
Quick correction: buckwheat, not barley. Autocorrect strikes again. In layman's terms, what would be the difference between a cereal and a decoction or infusion mash?
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:59 AM   #14
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Quick correction: buckwheat, not barley. Autocorrect strikes again. In layman's terms, what would be the difference between a cereal and a decoction or infusion mash?
A cereal mash is basically just boiling the grains to break down the structure. It's only used on adjunct grains because there's no worry about destroying the enzymes in those grains.
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:02 PM   #15
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Its used a bunch on oatmeal and rice when people forget to buy the quick cook or flaked versions.

A cereal mash is pointless without brewer's enzymes. This has been discussed many times. Someone should make a sticky of all the ways to convert grains.

A cereal mash will also change the flavor profile of your wort. I would never recommend it on clean profiles, such as an ipa.

Malted quinoa and buckwheat will work but, they have very high protein content. Brewer's enzyme would help break down the protein. Without it, expect a stuck sparge. I use special filtration when work with quinoa and buckwheat. Malted millet is the best grain I have found. Really reduces brew day headaches.

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:47 PM   #16
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It really is awesome isn't it! I can't wait to get back to Washington and brew. I'm glad to hear that the enzymes worked out for you. Did you ever get your wort to run off clear with the promalt?

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:53 PM   #17
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Also to answer your question about where to find a promalt enzy
I think that this might be promalt repackaged... I would call and ask or email for a data sheet.


http://www.brouwland.com/setframes/?...%3D24&shwlnk=0

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:57 PM   #18
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Here is the data sheet, the link is on post 12. It actually is promalt from the looks of it.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/ye-...73/index2.html

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Old 05-28-2013, 06:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osedax
Its used a bunch on oatmeal and rice when people forget to buy the quick cook or flaked versions.

A cereal mash is pointless without brewer's enzymes. This has been discussed many times. Someone should make a sticky of all the ways to convert grains.

A cereal mash will also change the flavor profile of your wort. I would never recommend it on clean profiles, such as an ipa.

Malted quinoa and buckwheat will work but, they have very high protein content. Brewer's enzyme would help break down the protein. Without it, expect a stuck sparge. I use special filtration when work with quinoa and buckwheat. Malted millet is the best grain I have found. Really reduces brew day headaches.
Will amylase help? The last brew I did I used malted buckwheat and quinoa in a nylon bag, stuck it in a cooler with 170 degree water for an hour, ran out that water and did it again, the water was much lighter in color the second time. I probably made a huge mistake using that first batch of runoff, but it smelled so dang good. The beer is a little harsh but I enjoy it.
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:09 PM   #20
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Hope the 170F was your strike temp. It sounds like a good process to me. Amylase won't breakdown protein. Beta-glucanase and protease are what you need. Using very hot sparge water also can help. You can also do a protein rest. I use a combination of these methods depending on my grist.

I want to get my hands on some promalt to help reduce wort viscosity. I might check out that above product.

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