Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Fermentation & Yeast > Yeast immobilization: magic beans of fermentation
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-17-2013, 04:55 PM   #321
stromam
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 68
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WortMonger View Post
If this works, I'm going back to my stir plate idea for primary fermentation since I won't have to fight the fallen yeast. Since I'm under positive pressure constantly, I wouldn't have the O2 going into the fermenting beer like in a starter to worry about and it would move the beer around the beads for greater yeast to beer contact. I'm in a Sanke so I plan on side wall stir bar agitation with a more spherical type of stir bar. My thoughts go to containing the beads in larger tea balls so they don't have any possibility of going into my dip tube when transferring to my serving keg.

One question that I am worrying about if this works: What about lagers? For ales floating beads is great since they are at the top, but what about bottom fermenting yeast strains? Would circulating via stir bar overcome this no matter the strain, or would you have to contain or sink the beads for lager?

Man this is a great experiment and I can't wait to see when tasting comes into the equation.
Someone may have answered this already, but it isn't the fact that lager strains sit on the bottom that make them lagers. They are just a different strain of yeast that ferment at lower temperature. That lower temperature fermentation means slower fermentation and the yeast cells don't get caught up as much in the rising CO2 so they tend to sit on the bottom. It really doesn't matter where the yeast is located in the wort.

In other words the "top fermenting"/"bottom fermenting" is only a function of temperature, you can use a lager yeast as a top fermenting if you crank up the temperature and an ale strain as a bottom fermenting if you turn it down, the strains have just been "optimized" to do one or the other.
__________________

Primary #1: Nothing
Primary #2: Nodda
Secondary #1: Nothing again
Secondary #2: Even more nothing
Bulk Aging: League of Nations Imperial IPA (keg)
Bottle Aging: Banana wine, JAO Mead, Bohemian Pilsner
Drinking (bottles): Strom's Belgian Wit, Halfawiesen, Amarillo IPA
Drinking (keg): Corney Cream Ale

stromam is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-25-2013, 10:15 PM   #322
ox45
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 48
Liked 10 Times on 6 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

First off, this is great! I am a mead maker by hobby, so I have decided to use this and another experiment utilizing ale yeasts in mead to try and find a quick turnaround mead recipe.
My question is since these immobilized yeast have already grown and multiplication is now stopped, would I still need to add nutrients to the must? I'm pretty sure the yeast utilizes the nutrients to multiply, so I'm assuming you would not need them?

__________________
ox45 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-28-2013, 02:34 PM   #323
Accidic
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Accidic's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Millbrook, Alabama
Posts: 1,443
Liked 81 Times on 72 Posts
Likes Given: 66

Default

I thought they burned through some of the trace nutrients not just while multiplying but also while fermenting? Still an interesting idea though.

__________________
Accidic is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-29-2013, 07:32 PM   #324
MalFet
/bɪər nərd/
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
MalFet's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NYC / Kathmandu
Posts: 8,277
Liked 1270 Times on 845 Posts
Likes Given: 584

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ox45
First off, this is great! I am a mead maker by hobby, so I have decided to use this and another experiment utilizing ale yeasts in mead to try and find a quick turnaround mead recipe.
My question is since these immobilized yeast have already grown and multiplication is now stopped, would I still need to add nutrients to the must? I'm pretty sure the yeast utilizes the nutrients to multiply, so I'm assuming you would not need them?
Interesting question!

I'm not a mead-maker, but yeast need nutrients for more than just cell division. I'm not sure what they would or wouldn't be able to get from the honey.
__________________

"Be excellent to each other." -Benjamin Franklin

MalFet is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-01-2013, 05:38 PM   #325
ox45
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 48
Liked 10 Times on 6 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Well honey is a great source of ferment-able sugars, but a terrible source of nutrients. So I decided to go ahead and put some in the must like I usually would.

So far I must say that this experiment is going incredibly well. I was worried at first since the yeast balls all floated on top and didn't seem fully submerged in the must. But the gravity readings are showing that this is working well!

I put the mead together on 6/26. It started with a OG of 1.087, and I made a slurry of about 300-350 billion cells of Trappist 3787 (due to another experiment on ale yeasts in mead). I measured this morning and the SG is now down to 1.016. This is an incredible rate for mead, much more so than my normal batches done the traditional way. It may be due to the fact that I probably overpitched with that many cells, but I do not taste any of the usual symptoms of overpitching.

I built a stir plate to try and move the must around, so that the beads are not just sitting stagnant on top. But my LHBS was out of stir bars so I had to order online. It looks like at this rate the mead may be done before that arrives! This could be huge for wine and mead makers since clearing can, and usually does, take weeks or months!

__________________
ox45 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-01-2013, 05:42 PM   #326
MalFet
/bɪər nərd/
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
MalFet's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NYC / Kathmandu
Posts: 8,277
Liked 1270 Times on 845 Posts
Likes Given: 584

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ox45 View Post
Well honey is a great source of ferment-able sugars, but a terrible source of nutrients. So I decided to go ahead and put some in the must like I usually would.

So far I must say that this experiment is going incredibly well. I was worried at first since the yeast balls all floated on top and didn't seem fully submerged in the must. But the gravity readings are showing that this is working well!

I put the mead together on 6/26. It started with a OG of 1.087, and I made a slurry of about 300-350 billion cells of Trappist 3787 (due to another experiment on ale yeasts in mead). I measured this morning and the SG is now down to 1.016. This is an incredible rate for mead, much more so than my normal batches done the traditional way. It may be due to the fact that I probably overpitched with that many cells, but I do not taste any of the usual symptoms of overpitching.

I built a stir plate to try and move the must around, so that the beads are not just sitting stagnant on top. But my LHBS was out of stir bars so I had to order online. It looks like at this rate the mead may be done before that arrives! This could be huge for wine and mead makers since clearing can, and usually does, take weeks or months!
That's awesome!

I'm still a long way from decided on how useful this is for beer (or, more accurately, whether the flavor profile is undisturbed enough for the benefits to be worth it), but I'm thrilled that this is working so well for mead.

This should demonstrate my ignorance about meads, but anyway: is yeast character usually desirable in meads? Or do people typically go for clean ferments across the board?
__________________

"Be excellent to each other." -Benjamin Franklin

MalFet is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-01-2013, 06:03 PM   #327
ox45
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 48
Liked 10 Times on 6 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

The wine yeasts definitely do impart different flavors. For example some prefer to use something like D47 or KV1-1122 for a melomel (fruit mead), or EC-1118 for traditionals.

With the results I have seen so far, I absolutely plan on trying more experiments for other types. But for this one, I am looking strictly to find a way to make a traditional mead that is drinkable in the quickest time. Loveofrose did an experiment on gotmead.com using ale yeasts to see if they would be drinkable quicker than wine yeasts. It was found that the Trappist 3787 produced a very drinkable mead in the shortest time. My goal here is to produce something that is quaffable in a month or so while I wait the year for the regular meads to age.

The biggest bonus I can see with this method is that I can pull the beads out when the mead hits the sweetness level I want. The usual process I follow for meads is to let it dry out completely and let the yeast drop. I then rack and stabilize. Once I'm sure its stable, I will backsweeten with honey which clouds it up again. With this, I will customize the SG for the ABV and residual sweetness I want and just pull the beads. That way it will only have to clear the one time and I am drinking it quickly without the losses of multiple rackings.

__________________
ox45 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-01-2013, 06:40 PM   #328
LandoAllen
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
Posts: 155
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts

Default

Has anyone tried this with cider yet to see if the cider can be left sweet once the beads are extracted?

__________________
LandoAllen is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-02-2013, 04:06 AM   #329
ox45
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 48
Liked 10 Times on 6 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Well disappointing news. I checked on the mead when I got home and there is what appears to be a layer of yeast on the bottom of the carboy. It's not much, but it shows that some yeast budded off and multiplied which means I can't just pull the beads to stop fermentation.


The pic looks worse than it is. That layer is really thin, but its still what appears to be active yeast. Now to figure out how to really trap the yeast in the balls.

One thing of note is the ferment speed. I'm wondering if the yeast in suspension do not realize the yeast encapsulated and therefore there is more yeast overall. I know a drop from 1.080 to 1.016 in a few days isn't too uncommon for beer, but it's pretty dramatic for mead/wine.

__________________
ox45 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-03-2013, 03:21 AM   #330
brant740
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 111
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts

Default

Did you clean the yeast balls before using them? Do you think there could have been some hitchhikers on the balls that caused the yeast cake?

__________________
brant740 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Adding coffe beans during second fermentation?? kzhilton Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 10 03-23-2012 08:19 PM
Wild Yeast or Magic? Tarheel4985 Fermentation & Yeast 10 12-21-2010 01:45 AM
Found the 'Magic' in 'Magic Chef' - keezer progress, questions MadDwarf Kegerators and Keezers 66 12-09-2010 05:41 PM
magic chef for fermentation fridge? jigidyjim Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 4 07-04-2010 04:48 PM
adding coffee beans in secondary fermentation ameadrat General Beer Discussion 14 06-14-2008 04:17 AM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS