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Old 04-18-2013, 07:00 AM   #151
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Beer B, C: still quite green, significant acetaldehyde; very "British", with fruit tones (apples, grapes) and sweetness. Muddled and harsh hop bitterness.
Beer A: Very, very clean. Not quite bland, but rather thin mouthfeel. Hops punch through, stay neutral. Grain.
Beer A is quite possibly like that due entirely to the lack of carbonation. Hopefully you'll still have enough by the end of this to do a similar tasting with carbonated samples.

I mentioned early in the MuPor thread that the ester profile would probably be nonexistent. Despite several parties insisting that this wouldn't be an issue (for various reasons), it just didn't seem possible for yeast with totally (or almost totally) inhibited reproduction to produce a "normal" ester profile, so it shouldn't really be much of a surprise (nor is it). However, even though it validates what I (and others, including yourself) have said, I'm not quite ready to call it confirmed just yet, based solely on a single tasting. Obviously there needs to be a number of samples, preferably using very different types of yeast. I think at the very l least there ought to be an extreme-ester Belgian bubblegum strain, which should be (separately) fermented at both high AND low temperatures.

Still, that's only a huge problem for certain beer styles. At this point, I'm not really seeing much of a downside with neutral beers, and most wines and other fermented beverages (yet). To me, wine in particular seems like a great potential use for this, especially since it's (usually) not carbonated, and because yeast sediment generally isn't tolerated in wine nearly as much as it's tolerated in beer. Not to mention that it could have great implications for backsweetening by hobbyists. Of course, this depends on whether or not enough yeast is left behind to restart fermentation (see last paragraph).

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That's actually what I've been speculating. I didn't rinse the beads particularly well after I made them for the beer batch, though I did for the sugar water batch. It could be that that made the difference.
Doubt it. The sugar water obviously just doesn't have break material. I wouldn't expect it at all to have sediment nor even a krausen regardless.

One experiment that would be very worthwhile though would be to test if enough yeast "falls off" (or whatever) to meaningfully ferment, determining if simply removing the beads is a viable alternative to pasteurization in a more conclusive manner than just a visual assessment of the sediment. Basically, just ferment a batch, remove the beads, and then add more fermentable sugars (as a boiled or even sterilized solution, if possible). Needless to say, it needs to be given much more time in order to distinguish between a non-fermenting sample and a sample that is merely fermenting slowly. If it appears that it DOES still ferment, the same experiment should be carried out with the exact same beads several more times (minimum), in order to rule out not only accidental infection, but also to take into account the possibility that any yeast present might have merely "washed off" from the outside of the beads.


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Old 04-18-2013, 03:55 PM   #152
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The risk of bottle bombs when using live yeast is just too big a threat at this point and could take YEARS to fully resolve by experiment by the home brewer. At what point are you comfortable giving a bottle to someone?



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Old 04-18-2013, 04:32 PM   #153
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The risk of bottle bombs when using live yeast is just too big a threat at this point and could take YEARS to fully resolve by experiment by the home brewer. At what point are you comfortable giving a bottle to someone?
Hmm...interesting. Why do you think there's more of a risk with the beads than with regular yeast?
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Old 04-18-2013, 04:56 PM   #154
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Hmm...interesting. Why do you think there's more of a risk with the beads than with regular yeast?
I guess I didn't write my post well enough to continue the train of thought. My concern was when he mentioned "back sweetening". If you have a few live cells they might take a very long time to reproduce enough 'bud'dies to consume all of the sugar.
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:00 PM   #155
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I guess I didn't write my post well enough to continue the train of thought. My concern was when he mentioned "back sweetening". If you have a few live cells they might take a very long time to reproduce enough 'bud'dies to consume all of the sugar.
Oh right. That's definitely true. I strongly suspect that there is yeast in suspension even under ideal circumstances. The no-pasteurize thing is a very cool idea and fully worth exploring, but I'm skeptical that it will work.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:57 AM   #156
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The risk of bottle bombs when using live yeast is just too big a threat at this point and could take YEARS to fully resolve by experiment by the home brewer. At what point are you comfortable giving a bottle to someone?
I'm not sure. I'd probably start with a month using plenty of fermentables in a test (ie not with bottles). If I were to do it myself, I'd do a few other samples alongside it, maybe using (for example) a single "grain" of dry yeast, perhaps a couple more with the "pitch" increasing by an order of magnitude each time, and maybe even from the tip of an inoculating loop using plating technique to reduce it to a "single" cell. Then I could see how long those take to get a sense of how long I need to wait for the un-beaded sample. I'd most likely do all these experiments at a slightly elevated temperature, probably in the 80°-100° range.

And of course, a control - if nothing else, just as some extra assurance that my process is adequately sanitary, to help rule out fermentation as a fluke.

I might even put a small sample (safely) away for an extended period of time, perhaps several years, just for added confidence, though I'd feel more than comfortable enough if the experiment resulted in no change detected after a month.

I moved last year and still haven't finished putting together a new electric brewery in my new place, so I haven't brewed here even once yet. Otherwise I'd just go ahead and do all these things instead of talking about it.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:08 PM   #157
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I'm not sure. <snip>
Way too many variables. When safety is concerned, I stick by my "years" time line.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:30 PM   #158
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Have your think about using a reverse spherification technique instead of what your using? in molecular gastronomy the direct spherefication it´s made just like you did but with the reverse technique the membrane it´s a lot less thick, basicly what you do is add a little calcium (if your base ingrediente has not already haves calcium) and put it in an alginate bath, you do it the other way around. I do this with my spheric mozzarella, the difference is that when you use the direct method, with the caviar for instance, the little beads keep hardenind even after you take them aout of the calcium bath, with the indirect method it stops soon as you remove the bead from the alginate.

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Old 04-19-2013, 08:56 PM   #159
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Have your think about using a reverse spherification technique instead of what your using? in molecular gastronomy the direct spherefication it´s made just like you did but with the reverse technique the membrane it´s a lot less thick, basicly what you do is add a little calcium (if your base ingrediente has not already haves calcium) and put it in an alginate bath, you do it the other way around. I do this with my spheric mozzarella, the difference is that when you use the direct method, with the caviar for instance, the little beads keep hardenind even after you take them aout of the calcium bath, with the indirect method it stops soon as you remove the bead from the alginate.
So your point would be to produce a softer or more porous bead?
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:26 PM   #160
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Interesting prospect. I'm not actualy convinced that permeability is the limiting factor so much as plain old stratification. But, I haven't yet figured out an easy way to test this. On my next batch, I've considered using a stirplate throughout.



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