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Old 04-16-2013, 07:27 PM   #131
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Given what you are saying - that oxygenation is important to ester formation and is also needed for yeast growth - would it be possible to eliminate ester formation by 1) not oxygenating my wort and 2) massively over-pitching to compensate for the poor oxygenation's effect on yeast growth? What would be the side effects of that?
Typically high pitch rates reduce esters, but I'd be wary of not oxygenating; while the main reason for oxygen is to get some cell division, it does have an impact on non-ester flavour compounds. I think (but am not sure) that less O2 can create more phenolics or higher alcohols (I forget which).

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Old 04-16-2013, 07:38 PM   #132
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2) yeast on the surface budded off and colonized the batch free-range style.

The beer is cloudier than it was this morning, but still quite a bit clearer than the control batch.
This is my guess, especially based on the cloudiness. Poor sanitation would probably show up later and slower.
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:46 PM   #133
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As far as I can think, there are two possibilities: 1) I picked up something wild, or 2) yeast on the surface budded off and colonized the batch free-range style.
This brings up an interesting point - I'm not hypothesizing that you have contamination, but if the yeast aren't propagating throughout the wort, then they won't have an opportunity to "crowd out" other critters that might have slipped through the cracks. Perfect sanitation would be even more critical.
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:47 PM   #134
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This is my guess, especially based on the cloudiness. Poor sanitation would probably show up later and slower.
I would agree. So if the yeast is indeed budding off is there a point to immobilization? other than a degree clearer beer?
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:50 PM   #135
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This brings up an interesting point - I'm not hypothesizing that you have contamination, but if the yeast aren't propagating throughout the wort, then they won't have an opportunity to "crowd out" other critters that might have slipped through the cracks. Perfect sanitation would be even more critical.
the yeast are still using up a large portion of the available nutrition as well as producing alcohol so I'm not sure if crowding out would matter.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:05 PM   #136
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So if the yeast is indeed budding off is there a point to immobilization?
That is what we are waiting on the answer to.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:09 PM   #137
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1) In my (limited) reading no one has tried to alter ester profiles through controlling oxygen concentrations, etc
You should read more broadly then.

This relationship is extensively explored in the brewing literature, and virtually every review article discusses the experimental findings. See, for example, "Control of Ester Synthesis During Brewery Fermentation" (Smart 2008).

I understand that it is a great deal of fun for the basic research guys to denigrate the applied research guys (and I'm sure I'm guilty of it in my day job), but ultimately the purpose here is to brew better beer, right? If you're actually trying to do something, the basic science literature is generally incredibly frustrating. To that end, I'm not sure what good comes from separating oxygen-dependent processes from cell division if, as you say, "in the brewing world oxygen dependent processes are almost impossible to separate from cell division".

If there's an upshot here for beer brewing rather than explorations in metabolism, I'd love to hear it. Sincerely. I must admit, though, I'm having a very hard time extracting a tangible punchline from the distinctions you're carving.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:15 PM   #138
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I understand that it is a great deal of fun for the basic research guys to denigrate the applied research guys (and I'm sure I'm guilty of it in my day job), but ultimately the purpose here is to brew better beer, right? If you're actually trying to do something, the basic science literature is generally incredibly frustrating.
I don't think I denigrated anyone; as I said, I try to be nice. But by the standards of most bio fields, the commercial fermentation literature is sub-par.

I've found the basic literature to be very useful for some of my wild yeast and "custom-strain" stuff; I guess 'useful' is in the eye of the beholder.

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To that end, I'm not sure what good comes from separating oxygen-dependent processes from cell division if, as you say, "in the brewing world oxygen dependent processes are almost impossible to separate from cell division".
Well, in your experiment it may be possible to do just that - its an exciting prospect (at least, it is to me). But going back to my OP, it again is consistent with esters not being produced during the aerobic/cell division portion of the ferment.


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If there's an upshot here for beer brewing rather than explorations in metabolism, I'd love to hear it. Sincerely. I must admit, though, I'm having a very hard time extracting a tangible punchline from the distinctions you're carving.
Well, firstly I did start my posts in reply to a metabolism question, so the direction of the conversation makes sense (at least, it does to me).

The upshot for brewing could be more control over the final product - being able to separate flavour production from other aerobic processes (which your beads may be able to do) would give us a great deal more control.

Bryan

EDIT: unless I'm mis-reading, the paper you cited didn't look at yeast in beads, but rather just at ester production in general.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:25 PM   #139
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I love this! Great stuff!

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Old 04-16-2013, 10:20 PM   #140
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I agree, this conversation y'all are having has provided me with a great deal of information using language that I (a layperson) can mostly follow. I don't think it's tangential at all. In fact I think it is highly relevant to the questions at hand. Not to mention highly entertaining! And it gives us something to do until the Mupor guys get back from TX and start posting again!

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