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Old 02-09-2012, 03:23 PM   #1
Delaney
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Default Wyeast Kolsch 2565 Lager Questions

Hi,

I am currently preparing a Kolsch 2565 starter. I plan to ferment the beer at a cold temperature, around 55F.

-Because this is an ale yeast, I'm confused as to whether I need 6 million cells/ml as is standard with ales, or 12 million cells/ml as is standard with lagers.

-This is not a lager yeast, therefore do I not need a diacetyl rest?

-Does this yeast strain require secondary fermentation to get a clean lager profile, or can I just cold crash it for a few days after primary?

-I also am wondering if anybody has experience fermenting this yeast strain at cold temperatures, and how long you fermented in primary/secondary.

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Old 02-09-2012, 04:37 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
Hi,

I am currently preparing a Kolsch 2565 starter. I plan to ferment the beer at a cold temperature, around 55F.

-Because this is an ale yeast, I'm confused as to whether I need 6 million cells/ml as is standard with ales, or 12 million cells/ml as is standard with lagers.

-This is not a lager yeast, therefore do I not need a diacetyl rest?

-Does this yeast strain require secondary fermentation to get a clean lager profile, or can I just cold crash it for a few days after primary?

-I also am wondering if anybody has experience fermenting this yeast strain at cold temperatures, and how long you fermented in primary/secondary.
2565 is ale yeast, so pitch accordingly. 2565 can produce some diacetyl (I never noticed myself), DR is not required for most part but can help. Cold crashing for few days is not enought with this strain. Few weeks is more like it, even then its still cloudy.
I usually ferment 2565 around 60F, @ 55F it can take as long as 3 weeks to get to FG, not sure why you want to go that low, but you can if you like to.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:44 PM   #3
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2565 is ale yeast, so pitch accordingly. 2565 can produce some diacetyl (I never noticed myself), DR is not required for most part but can help. Cold crashing for few days is not enought with this strain. Few weeks is more like it, even then its still cloudy.
I usually ferment 2565 around 60F, @ 55F it can take as long as 3 weeks to get to FG, not sure why you want to go that low, but you can if you like to.
when using a pitch rate calc like MrMalty.com, you should select 'hybrid' for the yeast type. it'll give you a pitch rate in between Lager and Ale.
Kolsch is an ale strain, as it's top fermenting, but everything else about it is lager, flavor wise and such. i'd recommend fermenting it a bit warmer than a lager, maybe mid 50's, finishing up in the high 50's, maybe 60.
60 degrees the whole way is more of an ale temp, and with this yeast you may need to lager longer if you ferment it too warm. i'm brewing an Alt with 2565 currently, i let 'er kick off at ~54, and have been letting it go up a degree a day until day 6 when i hit 60. i'll hold it there for a week after FG is stable before cooling it off ~2 degrees a day until i hit lagering temps, <40 degrees. the reason Kolsch takes longer at these temps is because it's much more lager like than ale yeast. lagers take longer to ferment, because of the low temps, but the beer will definitely benefit from the cooler ferment.
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can i drink this? I mean. Im gunna. But is it fine?
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it's not a barley wine. it's an ale.
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:09 PM   #4
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Okay well I have two options in terms of temperature to ferment this beer:
My wine cellar (52-55F)
My attic (70F)

I am not in a big rush with this beer.

How does this sound?
-4-5 weeks at 55F
-rack to secondary
-two days diacetyl rest at 70F
-cold crash for one week at 35F
-bottle

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Old 02-09-2012, 05:28 PM   #5
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Go with the cooler fermentation temps, in the attic your wort temperature is going to be 75+ and it will take FOREVER to clean up the taste. You'll be closer to 55-60 degrees in the wine cellar and should make a nice clean beer. I have had one batch pop the top on my ale pale when I pitched onto a yeast cake so beware.

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Old 02-09-2012, 06:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
Okay well I have two options in terms of temperature to ferment this beer:
My wine cellar (52-55F)
My attic (70F)

I am not in a big rush with this beer.

How does this sound?
-4-5 weeks at 55F
-rack to secondary
-two days diacetyl rest at 70F
-cold crash for one week at 35F
-bottle
i too, would go with the cooler temps. you'll want to be at your D rest temp before you reach FG, generally 80% or so of the way through fermentation. hold it there for a few days, or longer. your D rest temp can be +5-10 degrees of ferment temp. i like to just let mine rise slowly, starting as fermentation peaks i let it rise a bit each day til i hit my D rest temp. then, don't 'cold crash', slowly bring temps down to lagering temp. like 2 or so degrees a day, you don't want to shock the yeast into dormancy, just slow them down a bit as it cools. that way they'll aide in conditioning during the lagering phase.
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can i drink this? I mean. Im gunna. But is it fine?
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it's not a barley wine. it's an ale.
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Have you seen the price of ketchup lately? And I'm not talking Heinz.
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:29 PM   #7
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i too, would go with the cooler temps. you'll want to be at your D rest temp before you reach FG, generally 80% or so of the way through fermentation. hold it there for a few days, or longer. your D rest temp can be +5-10 degrees of ferment temp. i like to just let mine rise slowly, starting as fermentation peaks i let it rise a bit each day til i hit my D rest temp. then, don't 'cold crash', slowly bring temps down to lagering temp. like 2 or so degrees a day, you don't want to shock the yeast into dormancy, just slow them down a bit as it cools. that way they'll aide in conditioning during the lagering phase.
Okay, here is my problem. I cannot control my temperature, so the rate at which the beer cools/warms is determined by how fast it loses/gains heat from the ambient room temperature. One room is 50-55F, the other room is 70+F. I am not capable of heating or cooling my temps by 2 degrees per day. I am also not capable of lagering at a temperature lower than 50-55F. I have 30 gallons of beer on the go, and my fridge only has room for 10 gallons. So I can only use temps of <40 for cold crashing.

Furthermore I only have 6 weeks to brew this beer from start to finish, as I will be moving. So it must be bottled by day 45.

Given my situation, I'm thinking I should abandon the notion of a clear beer, and aim for cold fermentation temps. I'm pitching at a rate of 10 million cells/ml, so I'm not too worried about attenuation.

I'm thinking this is my best option:

-Ferment at 55F until FG, wait three days
-rack to secondary, lager until day 37-42, or skip conditioning
-Cold crash 2 days @ 35F
-Bottle


OR

The problem I see with this second option, is that in order to transport the beer from my wine cellar to my attic, I will disturb the hell out of my sediment. I feel like I need to take advantage of whatever flocculation occurs, given my short timeframe. It seems as if a diacetyl rest is unnecessary, so the only reason I can foresee me doing this is if by week 3-4 I still have not hit my FG.

-Ferment 80% at 55F
-Raise temp to 70F over 24-48 hour period (move to attic)
-Wait three days after FG
-Rack to secondary
-Lower temp to 55F over 48-72 hours period (move to wine cellar, insulate with blanket)
-Lager until day 37-42
-Cold crash 2 days
-Bottle
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:16 PM   #8
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I've lagered cream ales made with the Kolsch yeast after bottling and they cleaned up in time. The trick with this yeast is to keep the fermentation temps lower (which you can) and it should produce a clean tasting beer but will take longer to reach terminal gravity. You will need a D-rest though from my experience. This yeast also takes forever to settle out so cold crashing for several days helps to keep the sediment out of the bottle but it will form a compact layer after 2-3 weeks in the fridge.

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Old 02-09-2012, 11:39 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
Okay, here is my problem. I cannot control my temperature, so the rate at which the beer cools/warms is determined by how fast it loses/gains heat from the ambient room temperature. One room is 50-55F, the other room is 70+F. I am not capable of heating or cooling my temps by 2 degrees per day. I am also not capable of lagering at a temperature lower than 50-55F. I have 30 gallons of beer on the go, and my fridge only has room for 10 gallons. So I can only use temps of <40 for cold crashing.

Furthermore I only have 6 weeks to brew this beer from start to finish, as I will be moving. So it must be bottled by day 45.

Given my situation, I'm thinking I should abandon the notion of a clear beer, and aim for cold fermentation temps. I'm pitching at a rate of 10 million cells/ml, so I'm not too worried about attenuation.

I'm thinking this is my best option:

-Ferment at 55F until FG, wait three days
-rack to secondary, lager until day 37-42, or skip conditioning
-Cold crash 2 days @ 35F
-Bottle


OR

The problem I see with this second option, is that in order to transport the beer from my wine cellar to my attic, I will disturb the hell out of my sediment. I feel like I need to take advantage of whatever flocculation occurs, given my short timeframe. It seems as if a diacetyl rest is unnecessary, so the only reason I can foresee me doing this is if by week 3-4 I still have not hit my FG.

-Ferment 80% at 55F
-Raise temp to 70F over 24-48 hour period (move to attic)
-Wait three days after FG
-Rack to secondary
-Lower temp to 55F over 48-72 hours period (move to wine cellar, insulate with blanket)
-Lager until day 37-42
-Cold crash 2 days
-Bottle
i'd go with option one. you can always lager them in the bottle if they need more time.
as far as temps, with the move and all this probably isn't an option at the moment, but when ya get set back up, try something like this. also, Revvy just posted this thread about a very easy and cheap way to control temps and lager.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeoitsmatt View Post
can i drink this? I mean. Im gunna. But is it fine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeoitsmatt View Post
it's not a barley wine. it's an ale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bottlebomber View Post
Have you seen the price of ketchup lately? And I'm not talking Heinz.
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