WLP565 Belgian Saison Yeast in a Black Saison

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JLW

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I am thinking about brewing a black saison this Friday to be ready for consumption in February. I haven't used this yeast before.

Here is the recipe I found in : "A Saision for Every Season" - Drew Beechum

Ingredients
for 5.5 U.S. gallons (20.8 L)
11.5 lb (5.21 kg) Belgian Pilsner Malt
0.60 lb (0.27 kg) Crystal 120L
1.0 lb (0.45 kg) Munich Malt
0.4 lb (0.18 kg) Vienna Malt
0.4 lb (0.18 kg) Wheat Malt
0.25 lb (0.11 kg) Carafa Malt
0.50 lb (0.22 kg) Turbinado Sugar
0.75 lb (0.34 kg) Dark Candi Sugar
1.4 oz (40 g) Styrian Goldings Hop
Pellets, 4.7% AA, 60 minutes
0.5 oz (14 g) Saaz Hop Pellets, 3.5%
AA, 20 minutes
1 vanilla bean, split and scraped
(secondary)
1 cinnamon stick (secondary)
Yeast: See text for a selection of
Saison yeasts to choose from
Original Gravity: 1.080
SRM: 29
IBUs: 32
70% efficiency
90 minute boil
Directions
Mash in at 149° F (65° C) (1.25 quarts/lb
strike water) and hold 60 minutes. Boil 90
minutes adding hops as indicated in recipe.
Add turbinado and candi sugar for last 5 minutes
of the boil. Add vanilla bean and cinnamon
stick to the secondary and age one
month.

WLP565 Belgian Saison: This is the stuff
of legends. Slightly funky and earthy with
a deep spicy bite, with the right treatment
and patience the yeast can drop a 1.080
beer to 1.010 or lower.
 
I haven't used that yeast actually, but I bet by "right treatment" that means ferment 75-80F+ for at least a week or two. Anyhow, sounds tasty to me!

:mug:
 
That's what I was thinking 75 degrees sounds about right. Plus I can use my new fermwrap and temp controller!
 
if its anything like wyeast 3724 (and im not sure that it is, i know that they are both belgian), be prepared for it to get stuck at 1.03.

I have used the 3724 and also white labs Farmhouse Blend (platinum series availabe in late summer) The farmhouse blend attenuated much better and has more "funkiness" to it that the 3724 in my opinion. My friend really likes the WLP Saison II, his attenuated all he way down.
 
If you don't have that yeast fermenting in the 80-90 your wasting your time. Saison is a saison because of yeast behavior.

I had my Saison outside covered with a black tarp on a concrete slab in the heat of summer...At night it fell back down to 75...In the day I put it back outside. The Saison will be remarkably dry and have very little funky character. If you can keep it into the 80's by all means do it.

The nice thing about Saison yeast is that you don't have to cool the wort down as long. Those who complain about the WLP565 not attenuating as good as the 3724 are being wimps...Give the Saison hell for temperatures and it will give you ale of epic complexity and dryness. Enjoy.
 
75 is okay to start. But I would strongly recommend ramping it up from there. Try 2° per day for 7 days, so that after a week you'll be at 89°.

Have some cojones. Dupont ferments it at 95°. That's more to increase turnover than anything else, but obviously it still produces a good beer. Maintaining 75° with this yeast will result in a boring, and probably underattenuated, beer.

Some other recommendations:
- underpitch, but oxygenate heavily
- do NOT use a blow-off. In fact, try to just cover the opening with tinfoil instead of using an airlock. The higher the water column that the beer is venting into, the more pressure it's under, and the more esters are suppressed.
 
emjay I disagree...Ramping up serves no purpose. The Saison yeast will create the desired esters when pushed at higher temperatures 80-90 degrees is optimal. The ale will drop gravity points in the first three days rather rapidly then finish down just fine if you give it an extra two weeks.

Saison yeast is not like a conventional American ale yeast...The hotter the temp the better for Saison.
 
The last time I used 565 I had it up to 82-84*F and kept it there for the 1st week. I also pitched at 75. The trick with this yeast is temperature and a big starter. As far as ramping up or not I haven't been able to tell the difference, so I think thats personal preference. Keep it warm and it will do it's thing. Like many other Belgian strains it doesn't like rapid temp drops. It shocks the yeast, so avoid that.

beerloaf
 
OldWorld said:
emjay I disagree...Ramping up serves no purpose. The Saison yeast will create the desired esters when pushed at higher temperatures 80-90 degrees is optimal. The ale will drop gravity points in the first three days rather rapidly then finish down just fine if you give it an extra two weeks.

Saison yeast is not like a conventional American ale yeast...The hotter the temp the better for Saison.

I've made an unbelievable amount of saisons, and researched the heck out of them. Personally, I'd start a bit higher than 75 (~80, but I'd still ramp up), but not everybody is comfortable.

Yes, only the first little while is going to have an impact on esters. Having it ramp up, from a starting temp that's already somewhat high, encourages a more balanced overall profile in my experience. Don't forget, there are a number of esters that have different contributions.

After the first few days, yes, the impact on esters will be negligible. The reason I suggest to continue ramping up is to make sure it attenuates as fully as possible.

Don't get me wrong, I am all about the esters in a saison and think they are critical and should be in high levels. But "the hotter the better" simply isn't true. Even the foremost authorities on these ales concede that Dupont's use of a 95° temperature is solely to make fermentation speed along, and that more moderate temperatures produce a better beer.

Believe me, I'm not confusing this with an American ale, and I sort of resent the implication. I would never ferment an APA at 75-80°, it would taste like crap. But in my opinion (and in the unambiguous opinion of the judges who have scored so many of my saisons), hotter is not always better, and high-70's to mid-80's have produced beers with this yeast that have been far superior to saisons fermented outside this range - on the high and low ends.

I also edited the post to include several other things that have improved the ester profile in my saisons.
 
There are few "rules" for Saisons. I've only brewed one but I had it sitting around 80F for most of the primary fermentation time. Tastes amazing. Then again Saison Dupont is one of my favorite saisons, which as people have noted is fermented at 95F. Whether it's done to speed up fermentation or not, I think it pretty clearly makes for a characteristic flavor and aroma that many enjoy. Anyhow, this is all good advice but I'm sure if you have a good yeast, ferment higher than typical ales, and just have good ingredients and process I'm sure you'll make a delicious Saison! :mug:
 
I have also made a tremendous amount of saisons, and I've fermented exactly 1 at 90+, and it tasted delicious, using 3724 of course. However, I've achieved the same flavours from 3724 in the high 70s, low 80s. I pitch at 68-70 and let the yeast go with no temp control, my apartment is fairly hot during the summer, 85F+. I tend to let my saisons sit for 3-4 weeks in primary, though I've let some go for 2 months, I figure I'm usually making 7-8% ABV beers and they can use that time to mellow.

I am really a huge fan of using 3724 and adding 3711 a few days into the process so that the majority of the flavour is 3724 and the 3711 brings the attenuation to the party.

I've actually been making a lot of strange hybrids, stout and porter style saisons, with great success, at least to my palate. I find the roastiness and such really works well with the funky saison flavours.
 
Update:

I brewed this beer yesterday and everything went exceptional. I decided to use the washed 3711. I made a 1/2 liter starter and then 24 hours later stepped it up by 1 liter. I pitched last night around 75*. I am using a ranco digital controller, themowell and thermwrap to keep the temp around 80*.

Almost 24 hours after pitching I am seeing no signs of fermentation.
 
I am using this yeast for the first time in a rosemary/black pepper Saison I brewed today. I have pitched it at 68 degrees, and I am just going to let it go. We have 100 degrees for the next week at least so I figure it will continually ramp up over the primary till it hits 90 or so. I am a little leery of fermenting it so high above what Whitelabs recommends but if you guys say so I believe you.
 
Do it! Use alot of simple sugars too! Dry that beer the hell out! This is the goal of a saison, utherwise, its just a plain old tripple :)
 
I refrained from adding sugars during the boil... I figured I would add sugar about 5 days in to give it an extra push. Also I am paranoid about fusels so I don't want the primary going too bonkers. I don't know specifically that this would produce fusel alcohol but with a dang hot fermentation I don't want to play around with that.
 
I would have added the sugar to the boil. Higher OG encourages ester production.

I wouldn't be too concerned about fusels as they are largely converted to esters as well. My understanding is that saison strains tend to be particularly adept at this, and my experience is that (with a bit of time, anyways... can't necessarily say the same for a green saison) fusels have been unnoticeable in every saison I've made, whether it's been a result of low production or high conversion.

And what I know for sure is that the first time around, it's best to just go for it. You can always make corrections on batch #2, but... No risk, no reward, right?

Edit: Notice in my previous post how, despite numerous strategies for increasing esters, I actually recommend HEAVY oxygenation? Conventional wisdom would actually suggest that this LOWERS esters and raises fusels in a typical beer. But I find that this results in a better ester profile, which I believe is due to TWO mechanisms: the previously mentioned conversion of fusels, AND that the higher oxygenation supports the larger growth phase of the underpitched yeast.
 
This yeast is definitely a fast starter. It was showing activity within 2 hours last night, and today it is really going nuts. I'd like to experiment with open fermentation with this strain sometime.

image-162745447.jpg


image-2228392572.jpg
 
I would have added the sugar to the boil. Higher OG encourages ester production.

Damn, I hope you are right. I had a variety of brew-day mishaps yesterday, and my OG which was targeted at 1.091 (already big) wound up at 1.113!

One of the brewday foulups was I did not have time to make a starter, so I just went ahead and pitched two vials of WLP Saison II (566) in there (5 gal). Basement temps are 77, and it's chugging along, lots of krausen.

I am worried this will get stuck. I thought about moving the carboy from the basement to the garage to get higher temps. Any suggestions?

Muchas dankes.
 
It will likely stall around 1.035, maybe higher with your high OG. Don't worry, just let it do it's thing. You can put it in a warm area, that will help, but may not completely dodge the stall. This yeast almost always stalls/slows at some point. Don't worry, give it time and it will slowly get down. I don't k is how low it will go, though since you had a mighty high OG.
 
Thanks, Barrooze. Is it worth pitching another vial (or starter) if/when it stalls, or should I just ignore the fermenter for the next month? I thought perhaps adding a 1 L starter might help dilute the gravity down a bit even. This was a partial mash batch, tso I can even use the same DME as a base.
 
Marchborne said:
Thanks, Barrooze. Is it worth pitching another vial (or starter) if/when it stalls, or should I just ignore the fermenter for the next month? I thought perhaps adding a 1 L starter might help dilute the gravity down a bit even. This was a partial mash batch, tso I can even use the same DME as a base.

You don't want to pour funky spent starter beer in your delicious saison!
 
Just let the beer ferment. If the fermentation rate slows, go ahead and apply heat if u want. Heat can help it continue, but if you just let it go and accept the slower ferm rate as normal, it should complete just fine.

WLP565 is supposed to be the same strain (or at least very similar to Wyeast 3724). Here's a tread that has a lot of comments regarding the use of this strain. Most say to either leave t or apply heat. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/wyeast-3724-belgian-saison-they-were-right-131071/

Good luck and enjoy your beer! Sounds tasty!
 
Thanks! I hope this turms put well -- it's an experimental recipe. I used hnoey malt, white wheat and a little carapils in the partial mash, added dme to bulk it up, and 16 oz of clear canid sugar I had laying around. The hops are Cascade and Citra, and I plan to whack it with a 2 oz Citra dryhop after a while. With this one, it might be a longer than usual wait before the dry hop, at the rate fermentation will probably go.

What can I say, SWMBO likes the honey malt/citra combination, although this is the first time I've tried it in a saison. :mug:
 
I just went ahead and pitched two vials of WLP Saison II (566) in there (5 gal).

I just re-read your initial post. I believe WLP566 is supposed to have less of a fermentation stall than WLP565, so you shouldn't have as many issues along those lines. I would be concerned with a high FG. 1.113??? What was your recipe? Only using 1# simple sugars won't help you FG that much... I know these saison strains can get a beer very dry, but I haven't heard of many Super Imperial Saisons getting dry using just beer yeast. If you get a FG in the 20s, you may want to consider pitching some brett and letting it help you lower the FG over a few months. Good luck! :D
 
Funny, I didn't even notice this thread was about the black saison..

Well, I think I'm past the danger of stuck fermentation. I brewed on Saturday, and now it's down to 1.010 from 1.075 and still chugging. Of course it has been fermenting at 100 degrees Fahrenheit for the last 2 days ;) crazy stuff. The hydrometer taste was very encouraging - no hot alcohol whatsoever, a little banana but not much, just delicious saison flavor.
 

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