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Old 12-18-2012, 07:22 PM   #11
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So you don't think a yeast can perform beyond the manufacturer's listed attenuation ranges? Especially when we're talking about adding 100% fermentable sugars and not exceeding the yeast's alcohol tolerance?

There's already plenty of examples of this on this forum:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f73/simple-dubbel-309296/ (84% ADF)

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f73/skun...dubbel-265071/ (86% ADF)

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f73/stra...dubbel-137032/ (83% ADF)

It ain't just hypothetical, it's achievable. But you gotta have a great fermentation. If you're bringing this up because you're a fan of using old yeast that's fine, but I'm just giving experiential evidence as a reason why it might be worth a second thought. Besides all of that, I loved that dubbel and drank the hell out of it - I just consider it a fortuitous problem.

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Old 12-18-2012, 07:30 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by kanzimonson View Post
It ain't just hypothetical, it's achievable. But you gotta have a great fermentation. If you're bringing this up because you're a fan of using old yeast that's fine, but I'm just giving experiential evidence as a reason why it might be worth a second thought. Besides all of that, I loved that dubbel and drank the hell out of it - I just consider it a fortuitous problem.
I don't agree with your theory that "old yeast" is going to do a sub par job.

And yes, I do use old yeast. I just revived 6 different strains from 2-1/2 year old slants and I'm going to use all of them.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:14 PM   #13
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As mentioned earlier in this thread vitality and viability are important. They are a measure of yeast health and typically what you would look at under a microscope when using older yeast. You want to see how many living yeast cells remain and how active they are (the simple definition). And as stated the best way to use older yeast would be to do a stepped starter, slowly growing the yeast count and through the process ensuring proper yeast activity. This is, however, different from yeast mutation. As a particular culture of yeast is used more than once it starts to "mutate", meaning the characteristics of yeast which is for example 7 generations old might not be exactly the same as the original strain. This doesn't mean what the yeast is bad it just means that you might have different attenuation or flocculation etc when compared to the original.

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Old 12-19-2012, 12:50 AM   #14
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I used year old 1762 to ferment a dubbel and I regret it. I treated it very well, grew it up a lot, gave it lots of nutrients, stir plate, plenty of oxygen in the wort, and I only got 72% attenuation. The beer was tasty, but could have done with another 8-10 points of attenuation. I will never use old yeast again. While they obviously have the ability to ferment, how healthy are they?
I am confused....if you grew up the old yeast via stepped starters you aren't dealing with old yeast anymore. You "should" have an army of healthy new yeast.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:09 AM   #15
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I don't agree with your theory that "old yeast" is going to do a sub par job.

And yes, I do use old yeast. I just revived 6 different strains from 2-1/2 year old slants and I'm going to use all of them.
If you're doing slants then you're worlds above most homebrewers, me included. I can definitely see how you are able to effectively use old yeast.

My experience is based on an old yeast cake stored for over a year, and I believe the OP is talking about finding an old smack pack in the fridge. I'd consider both of these inferior to selecting the good yeast from a slant and growing it up.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:15 AM   #16
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I am confused....if you grew up the old yeast via stepped starters you aren't dealing with old yeast anymore. You "should" have an army of healthy new yeast.
I guess I'm concerned about either the old yeast mutating during storage, or a case in which they are so nutrient starved that when they finally have the chance to grow again, they are unable to effectively repair themselves and reproduce properly. I mentioned above the story from Yeast in which successive generations of oxygen-starved yeast were less effective fermenters. The common knowledge seems to be that yeast can recover from anything you throw at them but that's not the case. You gotta start with healthy yeast to get more healthy yeast.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:16 PM   #17
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[QUOTE="kanzimonson"]

Also, my dubbel recipe was fairly standard with about 8% crystal malt, some wheat, munich, and base malt, and 10% sugar. So I expected something more like 78-80% attenuation. Maybe 75% at the veeerry lowest./QUOTE]

Also, don't forget crystal malts are largely unfermentable and will impact for final gravity, thus impacting your attenuation.

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Old 12-19-2012, 02:21 PM   #18
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[quote=marc06;4697666]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanzimonson

Also, my dubbel recipe was fairly standard with about 8% crystal malt, some wheat, munich, and base malt, and 10% sugar. So I expected something more like 78-80% attenuation. Maybe 75% at the veeerry lowest./QUOTE]

Also, don't forget crystal malts are largely unfermentable and will impact for final gravity, thus impacting your attenuation.
Right, but I mentioned that because I feel that's a relatively common amount of crystal to put in a dubbel, and therefore I should expect a pretty standard attenuation of 75-80%
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marc06 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kanzimonson

Also, my dubbel recipe was fairly standard with about 8% crystal malt, some wheat, munich, and base malt, and 10% sugar. So I expected something more like 78-80% attenuation. Maybe 75% at the veeerry lowest.
Also, don't forget crystal malts are largely unfermentable and will impact for final gravity, thus impacting your attenuation.
Where did you hear/read that?? IF you're mashing as well (as in partial mash or all grain) it's NO issue at all. Even a pound of base malt is more than enough. Plus, there are even plenty of other malts (crystal included) that don't need base malt to convert, you just need to mash them.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:02 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by kanzimonson View Post
As I understand, those attenuation ranges are for all-malt worts. So theoretically if I make a 1.060 all-malt beer and achieve 75% attenuation with this yeast, I'll have a FG of 1.015. If I were to add enough sugar to this wort to make it a theoretical OG of 1.072, the beer would still ferment to 1.015 because the yeast would consume every bit of the sugar. 1.072 to 1.015 is about 80%
I expect the one with added sugar to have a lower FG. Simple sugars ferment more than 100% apparent attenuation.

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Theory is a wonderful thing that sometimes has no application to reality.
?????? Makes no sense.

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Plus, there are even plenty of other malts (crystal included) that don't need base malt to convert, you just need to mash them.
This is the first time I have ever hear Crystal has sufficient enzymes to convert (actually, any enzymes at all). I know there is a lot of starches in crystal that need to be mashed to get the most from crystal. Where did you find out crystal can self convert?
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