Using lager yeast(at lager temp) on ale recipe

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BrewZinger

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Hey everyone!
This is actually my first post (as you can prob tell). Hoping to become an avid brewer! (Florida).

I have a rather large chest freezer with temp controller that I want to brew lagers at. But i also want to brew a few ales, but my house is mainly kept at around 74 degrees (a little high for ales). I realize that using lager yeast is the definition of making a lager. But if I use all the characters of an ale recipe in the makings and substitute the lager yeast and lager fermenting temperature. Would there be much of a difference? I'm thinking with a clean lager yeast and the correct ale attributes (in recipe), there wouldn't be too much of a difference besides longer fermentation. Any tips?


Thanks again!
 
Can't really speak directly to your question, but if you've got the freezer and a reliable controller, why not set them up for ale temps?
 
Also, the difference between and ale and a lager is entirely the fermentation temperature. There isn't necessarily any such thing as an 'ale' recipe or a 'lager' recipe. There are classic ales and lagers, of course. That being said, I wouldn't worry too much about brewing an ale recipe with a lager at lager temperature. It might not be style, but it will still make good beer.
 
That would be a lager. You can use the same grain bill for lets say an amber beer. Use an ale yeast and you got an amber ale. Use a lager yeast and you have an amber lager.
 
Ideally I want to control the chest freezer for lager temperatures. Because..

It would be much easier (if it was possible) to control the chest freezer for lagers and add ale (with lager yeast). So I could do both lagers and ales(lager yeast). If I kept the chest freezer at ale conditions, i would eliminate the possibility of doing a lager (too high of a temperature).
 
Ah ok, the difference between amber lager and an amber ale is what I was looking for. With the same recipe/hops/carbonation and the different fermentation/yeast, I am wondering how much of a difference in taste.

But I am assume it would be the same difference when two identically ales use two different ale yeast producing two mildly different results!
 
Also, the difference between and ale and a lager is entirely the fermentation temperature.

Nonononono. Lager strains produce a much different palate, with what I call a "hole." They are metabolically different; they eat maltotriose and melibiose that ale strains do not. Ale yeast can grow at temperatures up to ~104ºF, lager strains give out around 82ºF, hence the 99ºF differentiation test.

cerevisiae ≠ pastorianus/carlsbergensis
 
944play said:
Nonononono. Lager strains produce a much different palate, with what I call a "hole." They are metabolically different; they eat maltotriose and mellibiose that ale strains do not. Ale yeast can grow at temperatures up to ~104ºF, lager strains give out around 82ºF, hence the 99ºF differentiation test.

cerevisiae ≠ pastorianus/carlsbergensis

Don't overcomplicate it, the OP has not even brewed yet. For his purposes, the grain bill only determines what kind or lager or ale you brew. If you use lager yeast at lager temps, the resulting beer is a lager, even if you used the recipe from a stout.
 
BrewZinger said:
Ideally I want to control the chest freezer for lager temperatures. Because..

It would be much easier (if it was possible) to control the chest freezer for lagers and add ale (with lager yeast). So I could do both lagers and ales(lager yeast). If I kept the chest freezer at ale conditions, i would eliminate the possibility of doing a lager (too high of a temperature).

I use one chest freezer to brew ales, lagers, and serve 4 kegs. I do one at a time.

If I were you, I would brew a couple ales, and ferment them in your freezer at ale temps (62-68*). You only really need the temp control for the first week, after that you can remove the ales and brew a couple lagers. Let the ales sit a couple week at room temp, then bottle them. You then have 10 gallons of ale to drink while your lagers lager for a couple months.
 
IMO lager yeast lets/forces the malt and hops to the forefront (depending on how you look at it) compared to ale yeast. I haven't done a ton of recipes, but I've done the same helles lager w/ lager and ale yeast and the results are pretty much night and day different, along with a couple oktoberfest recipes.

you'll still make beer, and it'll probably be good too... but it will be much different from using the ale yeast. apples and oranges.
 
I use one chest freezer to brew ales, lagers, and serve 4 kegs. I do one at a time.

If I were you, I would brew a couple ales, and ferment them in your freezer at ale temps (62-68*). You only really need the temp control for the first week, after that you can remove the ales and brew a couple lagers. Let the ales sit a couple week at room temp, then bottle them. You then have 10 gallons of ale to drink while your lagers lager for a couple months.



This is sort of what I'm looking for, i have a rather large chest freezer (great deal - 14/15 cu feet) and my concern is having to do the temperature changes for each individual beer at different times. (because i wont be making them all at the same time).

I guess what I'm really looking for is a type of rotation i can use in my large chest freezer to incorporate both ales and lagers.

I don't have a keg set up yet, but after i become more acquainted with brewing I think i will want to more to one... i don't hate bottling yet!
 
Well like I said you only need temp control on an ale for 1 week and 2 for a lager. You will have to eventually cool the lagers for an extended period.

You can brew like an IPA, stout and brown ale at 64*f for one week then take them out and put in a couple lagers for a month. If you dont brew frequently you won't have a problem at all just doing one at a time.

The main thing is to make some ales first because lagers take MUCH longer to ferment/condition/lager and will hold up your freezer for a while.
 
I think it depends on what you are aiming for. Ale as a word on it's own doesn't necessarily signify a strong ale character. Some people would refer to esters or fruity flavors and aromas as ale character. But american style ales tend to have much less of these esters than their british counterparts.

So I would think you would be able to simulate some ale styles with lager yeasts, but definitely not all. And you most definitely will be able to make great beer with lager yeast at lager temperatures. There's no rule saying you must brew a marzen or schwarzbier or pilsner if you're using lager yeast. The downside is that I don't know if there is a lot of information out there about what lager yeasts might be ideal for accentuating hop flavor and aroma, the way people are familiar with the interactions of wlp001 or US05 with american style IPA hopping.
 
So I would think you would be able to simulate some ale styles with lager yeasts, but definitely not all.

I disagree. Try Lagunitas Zephyr and just try to say it tastes like an ale. It doesn't, because it's NOT. It may have come out of the brewhouse as a IIPA wort, but it's fermented warm with a LAGER yeast.
 
huh? I said you could simulate some ale styles. NOT all. People suggest the opposite all the time with making a lager-like ale with wlp001 or US05. Why can't you go the other way, too, then?

I didn't say it would be exactly the same. It would be an approximation. If he really wanted an ale, after all, he'd just ferment with the appropriate ale yeast at the appropriate ale temps.
 
thegerm said:
huh? I said you could simulate some ale styles. NOT all. People suggest the opposite all the time with making a lager-like ale with wlp001 or US05. Why can't you go the other way, too, then?
.

The thing is lager yeast is lager yeast. To me even Anchor Steam beer obviously smells and tastes like a lager with lots of esters.

On the other hand fermenting US05 at 60 will make a clean beer that might pass for a lager.
 
You could go low tech with your ale fermentations. Use a large plastic tub/cooler fill with water and put the fermentor inside, rotate frozen water bottles to regulate temps down to 68ish, wrap tub with a blanket to keep the cold in longer. Doing this you could then use the one freezer you have as your serving/lagering chamber. I find Ales stay in the 68's with several water bottles rotated daily or so...
 
Or, you could set your freezer for lager temps, then put your ale carboy on a heating pad set up on a milk crate to get the temp up to ale ferm temp. Cover it all with a blanket to localize the heat. Keep the ambient freezer temp set to lager at 55*. Use the hot pad to raise the temp to 68* only at the ale carboy. Going from ambient 55* for a lager to 67* for an ale using a hot pad shouldn't be much of a stretch.
 
Just fighting disinformation.

And this is a good thing. Lagers and lagering are not well understood in general because a lot (the majority?) of brewers never make a lager. Some people believe lager yeast are technically the same as ale strains but just work at different temperatures. So it's refreshing to see someone try to educate others about a very important difference between the two.
 
Back to the original question how can he brew lagers and ales, I saw a guy (on this forum) who built a fermentation camber on top of the freezer for just this purpose of making lagers and ales. If your search to DIY forum you could probably find it and quiz him on the build details.

Or you could build and insulated chamber within the freezer and slightly heat it for ales? kinda backwards though?!?

Clem
 
The original question has been easily answered--with a temp controller he can ferment anything at any temperature. He just can't ferment a lager and an ale at the same time in the same chamber, and why would he need to? With a swamp cooler he can ferment his ales anytime anywhere so they don't need to be in the freezer anyway.
 
I always thought that if you used a lager yeast at a higher temperature you would technically be making a steam beer.
 
osagedr said:
Not unless you lager it...:mug:

A beer fermented with lager yeast at 50* for 3 weeks and then served without "lagering" (extended cold conditioning close to freezing) is still a lager. Or did you misread my post?
 
Inkmeup said:
I always thought that if you used a lager yeast at a higher temperature you would technically be making a steam beer.

You could say that. Thing is steam beer doesn't taste like an ale, IMO. he wants to use lager yeast at lager temps to make an ale flavored beer.

I already posted the solution 3 or 4 times. Use the freezer to make some Ales, then take them out and make some Lagers.

Whether or not the OP chooses to listen is another matter.
 
A beer fermented with lager yeast at 50* for 3 weeks and then served without "lagering" (extended cold conditioning close to freezing) is still a lager.

Not according to How to Brew: "Lager comes from the German word "lagern" which means to store. A lager beer is in cold storage while it ages in the conditioning phase. Temperature influences lagers in two ways. During primary fermentation, the cooler temperature (45-55 °F) prevents the formation of fruity esters by the yeast. In addition to producing fewer byproducts during the primary phase, the yeast uses the long conditioning phase to finish off residual sugars and metabolize other compounds that may give rise to off-flavors and aromas."

From New Brewing Lager Beer: "Lagers are defined by the process used to brew them. They are essentially distinguished from ales, the other beer family, by relatively slower fermentation at cool (40 to 55 degrees F [4 to 13 degrees C]) temperatures, followed by a relatively longer period of cold conditioning."

You probably know more than Palmer and Noonan about beer, though.
 
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