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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Fermentation & Yeast > so i had a talk with a brewery about fermentation.i was shocked at what they said
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:02 AM   #11
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@curlyfat: Sadly, no, you can't double up like that. You can NOT ferment under pressure as you will do some EXTREME damage to your fermenter with the amount of beer and the amount of CO2 being released during fermentation. That is why we have blow off tubes on fermenters. ()

The brewery I worked in used to pitch at 74º and put the cooling on to bring it down to 68º. This gave the yeast a bit of a kick start and then brought it down to comfortable fermentation temps. It's what I do at home as well and works like a charm.

Different yeasts may behave in their own manner but the brewery I worked in (and many) used only one yeast strain so they had done their homework on what worked for that strain.

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Old 09-15-2010, 03:03 AM   #12
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There was supposed to be a link after that first paragraph:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1649621/

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Old 09-15-2010, 03:05 AM   #13
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I don't know a whole lot about this subject, but I did read a patent from one of the big brewhouses wherein they disclose a process for brewing lagers at high temperatures by maintaining enough pressure to hold an amount of CO2 in solution equal to that which would be in solution at atmospheric pressure and lower temperature. In other words, it would appear that there is a strong relationship between pressure and "clean" flavors by way of equilibrium CO2 concentration.

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Old 09-15-2010, 03:07 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanzimonson View Post
I disagree with this. Most of the estery flavors associated with beer are produced during the growth phase of the yeast. Different temperatures during the growth phase result in different types of flavors - it's not as simple as the flavors being produced more quickly because the yeast are more active.

If you check out the customer reviews of White Labs strains, people are always saying stuff like, "Oh man don't pitch this into anything over 72 or you'll get [some crazy flavor]." Belgian and Bavarian wheat yeasts are great examples of this - too high temp during the growth phase and you've got banana beer.
I'll try to dig up the podcast I heard it from, but i think it was John Palmer who said it. I'd trust him over some reviews on a website that lack complete information (such has actual ferment temp, not just pitch temp).
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:17 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by curlyfat View Post
Ok....so if I understand right, you could ferment much warmer if you have it under pressure, like if you fermented in a corney with a pressure release set at carb pressures to naturally carb as you ferment. THAT is interesting.... two birds, one stone. Someone smarter please comment on my logic here.
I've never heard of this being done successfully. I'm not an engineer, but I think the pressure at the bottom of most commercial fermentation vessels is much higher than what you could get by pressurizing a corny keg.

If you are interested, there is a guy here who ferments in closed sanke kegs with a spunding valve to relieve pressure. I don't think its really to ferment at higher temps and reduce off flavors though. its just a technique to keep the beer from ever coming in contact with oxygen since he directly transfers to a purged keg from the fermentation vessel.
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:19 AM   #16
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I've heard that a lot of homebrewers pitch at ~80*F and slowly bring down the temp to their preferred range in the first 24-48hrs...

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Old 09-15-2010, 03:20 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcollins View Post
@curlyfat: Sadly, no, you can't double up like that. You can NOT ferment under pressure as you will do some EXTREME damage to your fermenter with the amount of beer and the amount of CO2 being released during fermentation. That is why we have blow off tubes on fermenters. ()

The brewery I worked in used to pitch at 74º and put the cooling on to bring it down to 68º. This gave the yeast a bit of a kick start and then brought it down to comfortable fermentation temps. It's what I do at home as well and works like a charm.

Different yeasts may behave in their own manner but the brewery I worked in (and many) used only one yeast strain so they had done their homework on what worked for that strain.
I am sure Curly mentioned a pressure relief valve to control the pressure????
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:33 AM   #18
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couldn't you just build an air lock (trap) with the desired level of pressure, ie 1' = .43 psi, it could get tall though. A mechanical valve would prolly work as well.

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Old 09-15-2010, 03:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorRobert View Post
Temp isn't important for the first phase of fermentation, as long as you don't kill the yeast.

I don't remember the specifics, but I heard the rationale a big ago on a podcast and it might be in Palmers book. When I get home ill double check.
I suspect you may have your information mixed up or incorrect. Palmer says: "Starting out warmer than your intended fermentation temperature will cause more off-flavors due to the fermentation by-products and in extreme cases may cause the yest to stall out." (How to Brew, Vol3, pp 96 'Fermenting your first batch')
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorRobert View Post
I'll try to dig up the podcast I heard it from, but i think it was John Palmer who said it. I'd trust him over some reviews on a website that lack complete information (such has actual ferment temp, not just pitch temp).
I'm happy to trust him also, not someone who seems to be a little mistaken on the information he's providing.
John Palmer wrote the first couple of chapters in Brewing Classic Styles, where they specifically say to start (lager) fermentation cooler and gradually let it warm up. The reason: "is to reduce the production of esters and other less desirable compounds during the most active phases of fermentation." (Brewing Classic Styles, pp 43)

In various recipes in the book, and the accompanying podcasts, Jamil talks about pitching low and letting it warm up. For example for a Weizen the "30 degree rule" (pitch at 13C and ferment at 17C = 30C) is used to produce a clean ferment.

As for the reason why the brewery the OP was talking about starts warm, I think that pcollins was correct in saying that most likely they only use one yeast, they know it and it's characteristics intimately and they know how they can get the 'best' results from their yeast. Sometimes the 'best' ferment may be a combination between speed, flavour and other factors.
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
I am sure Curly mentioned a pressure relief valve to control the pressure????
Yes, I was thinking a mechanical valve that can be set at a specific pressure, and would wrelease anything above that. I've been thinking about trying it for carbing/fermenting at the same time, allowing a temp increase would be a bonus.

I can't for the life of me remember what that stinking valve is called, though....
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