Is secondary fermentation an absolute must for high gravs?

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amcclai7

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I have brewed quite a few batches of beer and have never used a secondary fermentation. I care absolutely nothing for clarity. In fact, I prefer a slight haze in all my beers. Call me crazy but I think it adds flavor and mouthfeel.

However, most of these batches were extract and low-mid grav brews. The beer I'm doing now went in at 1.067 and with a high attenuating yeast is supposed to finish at 1.016 (6.7%) Add the .3% from the priming sugar and we're looking at a full 7%. Provided the thing ferments out to 1.016, or very close, within a week do I really need to use a secondary?
 
A secondary is not required. Higher gravity beer will require more time in the fermenter to get it to final gravity. You will see this when you take your gravity reading. Usually 10 days to 2 weeks in primary and 3 to 4 for higher gravity beers. It has been shown that beer sitting on the yeast cake for up to 4 months have not produced any weird taste in beer.
 
I would say no. The only reason I move mine to secondary are if I want to add additions like oak, vanilla, etc. or if I plan on conditioning in carboy before bottling. I don't like to keep my beer in primary for more than 4 weeks.
 
Awesome! Thanks for the replies.

Any idea on how long it will take? I've never done a beer quite this big before. It's going from 1.067 to 1.016 and I used Safbrew S-33 which is a high attenuating yeast. Temp is right about 70F.
 
A secondary is not required. Higher gravity beer will require more time in the fermenter to get it to final gravity. You will see this when you take your gravity reading. Usually 10 days to 2 weeks in primary and 3 to 4 for higher gravity beers. It has been shown that beer sitting on the yeast cake for up to 4 months have not produced any weird taste in beer.

I'm also very glad to hear this. I have been warned about this very thing many times but it never made any sense to me. I'm glad the myth has been debunked.
 
I have to caution that I left a beer in the primary fermenter in my basement for a few months, and it ended up tasting like meat that had gone bad. I now know what yeast autolysis tastes like. It's not worth the risk, in my estimation. That batch went down the drain. A few weeks in primary, maybe, but more than that is a risk I am no longer willing to take.

Calling it a secondary fermenter is our homebrewers habit, but is not really correct. It would be secondary fermentation if you repitch with a second yeast, as in adding champagne yeast to finish fermenting a very high gravity brew. In the industry I believe they refer to them as bright tanks. The beer is moved off of the bulk of the yeast, and the remaining yeast can flocculate without worrying about autolysis. The tradeoffs are the risk of contamination in transfer, and of oxidation. I prefer to take those risks. These days I use Cornies as bright tanks.
 
The tradeoffs are the risk of contamination in transfer, and of oxidation.

This is exactly why I only secondary when I'm aging for a long time or adding oak or fruit or whatever. Other than that, I've primaried for 3 months+ myself and have only positive things to say.
 
5 days should be enough to ferment to final gravity, depending on the yeast, and 4 weeks is usually a pretty good amount of total time to wait before bottling or legging. Probably another 4 weeks before the beer starts to taste really good.
 
amcclai7 said:
Awesome! Thanks for the replies.

Any idea on how long it will take? I've never done a beer quite this big before. It's going from 1.067 to 1.016 and I used Safbrew S-33 which is a high attenuating yeast. Temp is right about 70F.

I would consider making a starter for a gravity that high, it's not necessary but would help ferment quicker.
 
You can't put a specific time on beer being ready. Most wheat beers are made to go from grain to glass in 2 weeks with peek flavor being at that time. Look up centennial blond on here. The grains to glass on this is two weeks. Research has proven that with the amount of beer that a home brewer brews leaving the beer on the yeast cake does not produce off flavors. Palmer never uses a secondary. If you are getting wired taste in your beer it usually is from fermenting at the higher temp or contamination of some sort. Your grain bill also could have been messed up when it was filled.
 
You can't put a specific time on beer being ready. Most wheat beers are made to go from grain to glass in 2 weeks with peek flavor being at that time. Look up centennial blond on here. The grains to glass on this is two weeks. Research has proven that with the amount of beer that a home brewer brews leaving the beer on the yeast cake does not produce off flavors. Palmer never uses a secondary. If you are getting wired taste in your beer it usually is from fermenting at the higher temp or contamination of some sort. Your grain bill also could have been messed up when it was filled.

I feel assured now. However, I do have one question. Would there be a greater risk of autolysis with the primary at a higer temp? I usually ferment around 70 and with summer coming up that will only increase. Of course I can offset this with a bath soak, but given my living situation that is a serious pain in the ass.
 
It will be according to the temp range fermentation of the yeast. The chartaristics of the yeast at higher temps will come through. I usually ferment around 69 or 70 with no problems.

Sorry it took me so long to answer. Just saw the reply.

Here is a pic of my last brew. Clear as a bell. Only 10 days in primary and two weeks slow carbed in keg. Is awesome.

Thanks

Beer.jpg
 
Just did three 10% SMaSH IPA's a month or two ago all using US-05. All three fermented down to 1.008-1.010 in 3-5 days at 70F. One of them fermented so quickly that I was worried fermentation hadn't started. Took a gravity reading and it was already done!

Left them in the fermenter for 7 days and dry hopped for 7 days for a total of two weeks in the primary. Bottle conditioned for 2 weeks and they were absolutely amazing. I've never used a secondary and don't ever plan to.
 
I like to bulk age my big beers (like +9%) to help them clear up a bit and to condition for 6-8 weeks. I think it helps meld the flavors together, but I havent compared that to a bottle condition beer that went straight from primary. Added bonus: clears up a bucket sooner than waiting 2-3 months.

To the OP: fermenting at ambient 70 is waaay to warm for most yeasts*. If youre doing American-type ales try to cool them down using a swamp cooler at least. If the yeast are happy, the beer will be much better
 
A secondary is not required. Higher gravity beer will require more time in the fermenter to get it to final gravity. You will see this when you take your gravity reading. Usually 10 days to 2 weeks in primary and 3 to 4 for higher gravity beers. It has been shown that beer sitting on the yeast cake for up to 4 months have not produced any weird taste in beer.

Do you have a scientific study that has shown this? I've seen people that claim they can taste a, negative, difference at 4 weeks versus 2 (in the primary). I've personally never left my beer in the primary for more than ~4 weeks, so I don't have any of my own evidence either way.
 
Do you have a scientific study that has shown this? I've seen people that claim they can taste a, negative, difference at 4 weeks versus 2 (in the primary). I've personally never left my beer in the primary for more than ~4 weeks, so I don't have any of my own evidence either way.

Are you referring to that British yeast thread?

Otherwise I havent heard of the beer tasting worse after 4 weeks when compared to 2. There is a lot of variables to consider though
 
Are you referring to that British yeast thread?

Otherwise I havent heard of the beer tasting worse after 4 weeks when compared to 2. There is a lot of variables to consider though

No I forget which thread it was. The recommendations in the S-04 thread don't match my findings, so I don't put much stock in that. My point is that I hear a lot of people say they have left their beer in the primary for 6 months with no ill effects. However, I can't personally taste those beers, so it'd be nice if there were some scientific study I could read that at least attempts to be more objective.
 
Look at Palmer's book on brewing. He covers this and explains why he thinks secondary s are a waste of time. He also points to studies done by breweries.
 
Look at Palmer's book on brewing. He covers this and explains why he thinks secondary s are a waste of time. He also points to studies done by breweries.

I didn't say that you should secondary. You made an assumption. I'm just skeptical about the "no ill effects" from leaving a beer in the primary for 4+ months... especially the idea that it's "been shown."
 
Look at Palmer's book on brewing. He covers this and explains why he thinks secondary s are a waste of time. He also points to studies done by breweries.

Just because Palmer says he doesnt secondary doesnt make it gospel. I dont mean to be come off rude or anything, but I definitely think brite tank-ing stuff is beneficial in big beers. Normal 1050-1060 beers, no way; but a 1095 beer will benefit from a couple months in a brite tank.
 
No worries,
What I was trying to get too was that I believe he explains about studies done by big breweries about leaving beer on the yeast cake for an extended amount of time. Call your local brewery if you have one and see what they would have to say. I guess there would be a time limit difference for each beer. Im not saying indefinitely, but the time he said I dont think there will be a problem with after taste in beer. :)
 
No worries,
What I was trying to get too was that I believe he explains about studies done by big breweries about leaving beer on the yeast cake for an extended amount of time. Call your local brewery if you have one and see what they would have to say. I guess there would be a time limit difference for each beer. Im not saying indefinitely, but the time he said I dont think there will be a problem with after taste in beer. :)

I suppose I'll have to look. However, it'd seems unlikely that a brewery, that wants to make money, would tie up their primary fermenter for longer periods, so I'd be surprised if they kept theirs in a primary for 4 months (let alone 4 weeks).
 
It would be cheaper for a brewery to use only one fermentation and not move in my opinion. Thus this is why the study was done. I was just offering what I had read to backup my post. Everyone has their on way. There are many people including me that has left beer on primary for a long time with no ill effects and others that have done it with horrible results. The difference is too many variables from place to place to account what has went wrong. No two home brewers brew the same way or has the same sanitation and equipment. I do respect your point of view. This guy was only talking about leaving in for 4 weeks because of higher gravity beer. I think he will be fine.:)
 
It would be cheaper for a brewery to use only one fermentation and not move in my opinion. Thus this is why the study was done. I was just offering what I had read to backup my post. Everyone has their on way. There are many people including me that has left beer on primary for a long time with no ill effects and others that have done it with horrible results. The difference is too many variables from place to place to account what has went wrong. No two home brewers brew the same way or has the same sanitation and equipment. I do respect your point of view. This guy was only talking about leaving in for 4 weeks because of higher gravity beer. I think he will be fine.:)

My point with the breweries was that I don't know why they would have had the beer in the primary for 4 months. For example, I believe in a thread on here Mitch Steele said that they package their pale ale after 10 days.
 
I've heard autolyst is more of a concern in big breweries because the yeast is under a lot of pressure from the massive amount of beer ontop of it.

On the homebrew scale that's not much of an issue. I never do secondaries anymore, and I've left my beers on the yeast for 7+ weeks with no ill effects. if i'm going to bulk age, i do it in a Co2 cleared keg, or in the bottles. for big beers i let them sit on the yeast cake for 4+ weeks. and i am very happy with the results
 
My old brewing partner and I brewed a 1.120 RIS years ago. after a month in primary I kegged my 5 gallons and we bottled his. I stuck my keg in the closet to age for several months but as soon as his bottles were carbonated he started drinking them. I can honestly say that his beer was delicious a month after bottling, probably as good as my keg was 6 months later when we tapped it. Unfortunately it is impossible to compare fresh and aged beer from the same batch because we really are not wired to exactly remember what a beer tasted like months before. Some people think they can but I seriously doubt it.
 
My old brewing partner and I brewed a 1.120 RIS years ago. after a month in primary I kegged my 5 gallons and we bottled his. I stuck my keg in the closet to age for several months but as soon as his bottles were carbonated he started drinking them. I can honestly say that his beer was delicious a month after bottling, probably as good as my keg was 6 months later when we tapped it. Unfortunately it is impossible to compare fresh and aged beer from the same batch because we really are not wired to exactly remember what a beer tasted like months before. Some people think they can but I seriously doubt it.

I am worried about this as I have recently started kegging. I am worried that if I try to keg some big beers that definitely benefit from bottle aging, I wont have the same results just putting it in a keg for the same time as it would be in the bottles. I would be interested to hear anyone else's experiences with this
 
The only time I'll go into a secondary is if I'm adding something to the beer that wouldn't really work just adding in bottling - like the porter I have in primary now, which will go over to secondary after it's done there (I'm guessing 3 weeks, but I'll take readings to be sure) to get some bourbon and vanilla additions to it. Otherwise, as I've learned from reading here, I simply leave everything in primary at least 4 weeks, and it's all turned out great following that strategy. The only exception was my wheat ale, that I bottled after just 2.5 weeks, but I didn't want that one to be totally clear anyways.
 
I'm planning on brewing an IIPA (O.G. ~1.085) this weekend before I leave for a business trip for 5 weeks. I'm planning on leaving it in my fermentation freezer for the entire 5 weeks then dry hopping for 2 more weeks after I get back, so that'll be a total of 7 weeks. We'll see how it turns out.
I have a feeling that the guys' beers that are no good after a month or two of fermentation are more related to not sanitizing enough/properly or a weak yeast strain that wasn't very viable from the beginning. I was "raised" with the concept of always using a secondary, however, there is plenty of evidence on here that shows that secondaries are only necessary for additions or bulk ageing. I have started cold crashing my beers for around 5 days and I would say that that is equivalent to several weeks of clearing in a secondary.
 
I'm planning on brewing an IIPA (O.G. ~1.085) this weekend before I leave for a business trip for 5 weeks. I'm planning on leaving it in my fermentation freezer for the entire 5 weeks then dry hopping for 2 more weeks after I get back, so that'll be a total of 7 weeks. We'll see how it turns out.
I have a feeling that the guys' beers that are no good after a month or two of fermentation are more related to not sanitizing enough/properly or a weak yeast strain that wasn't very viable from the beginning. I was "raised" with the concept of always using a secondary, however, there is plenty of evidence on here that shows that secondaries are only necessary for additions or bulk ageing. I have started cold crashing my beers for around 5 days and I would say that that is equivalent to several weeks of clearing in a secondary.

What I'd like to see is objective tasting panels where a 10 gallon batch is split in to two 5 gallon batches, each with half of the same yeast starter. One batch would be in the primary for 2 weeks, and then in the keg for ~4 weeks. The other batch would be in the primary for 6 weeks. At the conclusion they'd be carbonated to the same number of volumes.

EDIT: I should clarify. I doubt the 6 week primary would taste better than the 2 week primary. I'd imagine they'd probably taste similar. My primary complaint is with the "a minimum of 4 weeks."
 
I bet a 2-week primary may not be as good as the yeast dont have enough time to 'clean' up sort of speak.
 
I bet a 2-week primary may not be as good as the yeast dont have enough time to 'clean' up sort of speak.

I'd imagine that any clean-up (e.g. diacetyl) is likely to happen within a couple days of the beer reaching FG, or at least it can happen that way. That's been my experience at least. Also, Mike McDole (The Brewing Network) seems to have no trouble doing high gravity beers in a couple weeks (Admittedly I've not tried his beers.). He filters his beers though, which helps with conditioning.
 
I am worried about this as I have recently started kegging. I am worried that if I try to keg some big beers that definitely benefit from bottle aging, I wont have the same results just putting it in a keg for the same time as it would be in the bottles. I would be interested to hear anyone else's experiences with this
Aging beers in kegs is a great way to do it, especially at cold temps. My point above is that big beers can taste great fresh, and they can taste great with a little age on them, especially if well brewed. Big beers that still have some harsh flavors from too warm fermentation temps, or harsh hop flavors can really benefit from aging in kegs.
When I brew a big beer I'll leave it in primary 3 weeks after it gets to FG, then I keg it and let it sit in the closet for a while. When room opens up in my lagering fridge I put the kegs in there for a month or more at 34F Normal gravity ales go directly into the lagering fridge for a month and then get tapped. lagers are usually brewed with Oktoberfest in mind and may stay in the lagering fridge 6 months.
 
I'd imagine that any clean-up (e.g. diacetyl) is likely to happen within a couple days of the beer reaching FG, or at least it can happen that way.

I completely agree. I've done a 7.0 ABV Pale Ale that was in the primary for just two weeks and it was awesome after just a month in the bottles.

The main reason that I'm leaving it in the primary for this long is because I'll be out of town and thought it would be a good time to test the long (4+ weeks) primary theory for myself.

It really comes down to the yeasties. They are some really hard workers and if you get a good group of them working together, they can tear through some sugar quick...:drunk:
 
Aging beers in kegs is a great way to do it, especially at cold temps. My point above is that big beers can taste great fresh, and they can taste great with a little age on them, especially if well brewed. Big beers that still have some harsh flavors from too warm fermentation temps, or harsh hop flavors can really benefit from aging in kegs.
When I brew a big beer I'll leave it in primary 3 weeks after it gets to FG, then I keg it and let it sit in the closet for a while. When room opens up in my lagering fridge I put the kegs in there for a month or more at 34F Normal gravity ales go directly into the lagering fridge for a month and then get tapped. lagers are usually brewed with Oktoberfest in mind and may stay in the lagering fridge 6 months.

Yah, but I consider the 'aging in the kegerator' as more of a lagering phase, which definitely has its place (like you mentioned). But for ales (esp Belgians) I wonder if bottle conditioning compared to keg conditioning makes a difference? I have a belgian pale right now that I have put in a keg for the first time. I put it in the fridge on gas for a week to carbonate and now I've got it room temp aging/conditioning. I'm very interested to see what it tastes like in a few weeks compared to previous versions that I have exclusively bottled.
 
Yah, but I consider the 'aging in the kegerator' as more of a lagering phase, which definitely has its place (like you mentioned). But for ales (esp Belgians) I wonder if bottle conditioning compared to keg conditioning makes a difference? I have a belgian pale right now that I have put in a keg for the first time. I put it in the fridge on gas for a week to carbonate and now I've got it room temp aging/conditioning. I'm very interested to see what it tastes like in a few weeks compared to previous versions that I have exclusively bottled.

I have a batch of my Belgian quad that sat for 4 or 5 months at room temp before getting put in the fridge because it had too much alcohol heat when it was young. It's much mellower now I also have kegs of cherry brett and crabapple brett that have sat at room temp for 6 months now to let the brett work it's magic. Beers that need long aging get it before they go in the fridge.
Also I like to force carbonate the kegs and use my Beergun to bottle beer without the yeast sludge in the bottom. Letting the beer sit cold a couple of months really clarifies the beer and I can bottle when the carbonation level is where I want it.
 
I have a barleywine fermenting since Sunday that started at 1.104 and it's sitting at 1.034 right now. It will stay in primary until it's finished and I'm hoping that is attenuates low enough for what I'm looking for. 1.020-1.022 would be great. In my experience secondaries are useful for adding fruit or other things but that's about it. It's just another container to clean IMO. :)

I think your best bet for higher ABV beers is pitching the right amount of yeast. That and temperature are really the deal breakers.
 
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