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Old 06-25-2012, 04:37 AM   #1
Rivenin
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Default Saison yeast then a lager yeast

here is a question i was just pondering.
i'm sipping a saison and was reading up about lager beers. so it started popping through my head.
Has anyone ever done something to this nature?

brew a normal saison brew, something like 50% 2 row, 50% wheat, sazz hops, ferment it half out with something like 3724 (which has to be upwards of 90*). then when it hits half attenuation. chill it to lagering temps, toss in some lager yeast, ferment the other half out with the lager yeast and go from there.

is this plausable? seems like it would be a more clean saison. i haven't heard of something like this... i'm sure it's been done, so im' wondering if anyone has done something like this before?

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Old 06-25-2012, 04:39 AM   #2
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"Clean saison" is kind of an oxymoron, tbh. It would just be kind of a bland version of one... if anything, you want to promote esters.

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Old 06-25-2012, 12:20 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by emjay View Post
"Clean saison" is kind of an oxymoron, tbh. It would just be kind of a bland version of one... if anything, you want to promote esters.
I agree. Just use the 3724. Ferment warm and let it finish.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:52 PM   #4
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I say go for it. I see no problems with this idea. You get most of the esters right in the beginning anyway. Yes, esters are desireable, but why does one need to maximize them? More is not always better. I personally prefer a lighter crisper saison. I ferment on the cool side and only let it warm up at the end to help it drop the FG. Plenty of esters.

On the other hand, I think 50% wheat is totally out of place in a saison. To me this is a wit. I personally feel that wit yeast and saison yeast are relatively interchangeable (while not an ideal substitute, they would be the best sub. if the right one is not available). The big difference is in the grain bill with the saison being ideally 90% plus pilsner malt

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Old 06-25-2012, 02:46 PM   #5
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I think you may have some problems getting the lager yeast started in a half fermented beer with no oxygen available for the lager yeast to multiply.

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Old 06-25-2012, 02:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjj2ba
I say go for it. I see no problems with this idea. You get most of the esters right in the beginning anyway. Yes, esters are desireable, but why does one need to maximize them? More is not always better. I personally prefer a lighter crisper saison. I ferment on the cool side and only let it warm up at the end to help it drop the FG. Plenty of esters.
One usually tries to maximize esters in a saison because it's what gives the style its character. Being very ester-y doesn't make a beer any less lighter or crisp.

And for the plan to make any noticeable difference at all, he's got to let the lager yeast ferment a significant portion of it. Which, as I said, will make a bland "saison", in quotes because it won't be much of a saison at all, in the same manner that it, as you said, won't be much of a saison if he uses 50% wheat. Speaking of which, a bit of wheat is good in a saison, but too much and you lose the crispness so desirable in the style... there's a reason that a (relatively) large proportion of simple sugar is considered such a critical component.

If a bland saison is what one wants, then go for it. But you can pretty much accomplish the same thing by mixing light lager with the saison 50/50. And in fact, that'd be the preferable method as one can fine-tune the blend as much as they want, and still have a full-flavored saison if they decide they don't like the blend.

The OP said he wanted a "clean saison", and I still contend it's an oxymoron. The fermentation byproducts (particularly esters) are what *define* the style and separates it from the others. A "clean" fermentation results in a reduced ester profile. I'm just trying to point out that all one does when "cleaning up" a saison is to take away its character. The bottom line is that if somebody feels that saisons aren't "clean enough" for their tastes, the style is obviously not for them, and their efforts are almost definitely better spent on just brewing a cleaner style rather than trying to clean up an inherently and characteristically "dirty" style. Square peg in a round hole and all that nonsense...

That being said, every brewer wants to be the one that introduces a complete overhaul of the paradigm, and so if this OP is like the thousands of OPs that have been on HBT presenting a "novel" idea, nothing I say is going to matter. And in this case, it really doesn't hurt too much to try, other than the time and money spent on a rather insipid brew. So I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm trying to "make" him do or not do something... I'm just giving him the facts so that he can make a more informed choice as to whether or not it's worth doing.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:13 PM   #7
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Whoops on the 50% wheat, it was an "under the influence" post. i had meant more of a 5-10%. just had 50-50 on the mind with the yeast.
I Was at the time drinking a saison, so it gave me the idea about the saisonesc-lager of sorts. but this could more work with any style or have fun with it. like a london ale yeast to get some of the fruityness but not all and then give it that somewhat lager crispness. could be way more effort then it's worth (which it probably is). But that is the fun thing about our hobby, experimentation every so often .

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Old 06-25-2012, 05:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivenin
Whoops on the 50% wheat, it was an "under the influence" post. i had meant more of a 5-10%. just had 50-50 on the mind with the yeast.
I Was at the time drinking a saison, so it gave me the idea about the saisonesc-lager of sorts. but this could more work with any style or have fun with it. like a london ale yeast to get some of the fruityness but not all and then give it that somewhat lager crispness. could be way more effort then it's worth (which it probably is). But that is the fun thing about our hobby, experimentation every so often .
Yes
Yep. Like I said though, blending a saison with a lager afterwards is probably the better route, as you can taste first, allowing you to determine the *ideal* 11a@q1@1@, or1l even just to keep them as http://icanhascheezburger.files.word...bvious-cat.jpg beers, if that's what yomtu6tyy77nk1q u wanj7prefer.
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The main problem with your idea is that it will really just "averages out" the two styles/strains, rather than giving you the best of both worldcs. For example, you're not really going to get much of a "lager crispness" (by your apparent definition - I find saisons to be pretty damn crisp to begin with), as the
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