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Old 12-21-2013, 08:00 PM   #1
Sumo2000
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Default Saison infected my equipment?

Ok, my issue is pretty much all my beers for months now taste fine after a couple weeks in the bottle but gradually get more dry, tart and carbonated to the point of being undrinkable. I have made saisons (that came out fine) with this equipment and I've heard of that causing problems so maybe I just need to replace all my plastic? Is it likely that thinks like my autosiphon would house whatever funk is causing this?

One of the tell tale indicators I've noticed is that all of the "infected" bottles have a film (yeast?) on the sides of the bottle after conditioning instead of just at the bottom. I've also noticed that if I let the bottles sit long enough that some will develop a little mini krausen line.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

ETA: Maybe not a saison problem. I am pretty careful about sanitation though and this has been a consistent issue for at least 5 batches now. That's what leads me to think that my equipment may be carrying something.

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Old 12-21-2013, 08:08 PM   #2
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Saison yeast is sacchromyces like any other standard beer yeast. The problem is that you aren't cleaning and sanitizing your equipment properly and that you're contaminating your beer with some sort of wild yeast.

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Old 12-21-2013, 08:09 PM   #3
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Yes, I would never use the same equipment for both. I am not sure I want to make beers with bacteria in the same location. But, that being said, I would try soaking EVERY THING in a strong bleach solution, 10ppm should do. Then wash and rinse them thoroughly.
Household bleach is 5% sodium Hyperchlorite, so around 1 ppm = 1
milligram/Liter.

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Old 12-21-2013, 08:24 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by TNGabe View Post
Saison yeast is sacchromyces like any other standard beer yeast. The problem is that you aren't cleaning and sanitizing your equipment properly and that you're contaminating your beer with some sort of wild yeast.
TNGabe is right. Saison yeast is just yeast. It is not some super ninja yeast that will infect everything.

It sounds like you have a sanitizing problem. I brew a lot of saisons and never have a problem.
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Old 12-21-2013, 10:48 PM   #5
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Unfortunately, there are way to many, wannabe rocket scientist, in these forums to get accurate information, Saison's are brewed with Brittanomyces, a totally different animal than most brew yeast. Also my guess is you bought a yeast starter for this from one of the big yeast suppliers. Not only does it contain Lactobacillus,, same bacteria in sour dough bread, also produces lactic acid, Brettanomyces, entirely a different yeast strain from most yeast in brewing, and Pediococcus, a bacteria that produces acetic acid. These bacteria are present in your environment, when you concentrate them in a brewing situation, you will cross contaminate every thing in the area, they are hard to kill.
So don't let these guys lead you to believe there is no problem. You, Sumo have identified a problem, so extreme sanitation will be needed, beyond a little starsan.

I really wish people would make sure they know what they are talking about, before giving out poor advice. You do no one any favors, talking out your azz. :-)

Good luck Sumo, let us know how the clean-up goes.

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Old 12-21-2013, 10:52 PM   #6
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Unfortunately, there are way to many, wannabe rocket scientist, in these forums to get accurate information, Saison's are brewed with Brittanomyces, a totally different animal than most brew yeast. Also my guess is you bought a yeast starter for this from one of the big yeast suppliers. Not only does it contain Lactobacillus,, same bacteria in sour dough bread, also produces lactic acid, Brettanomyces, entirely a different yeast strain from most yeast in brewing, and Pediococcus, a bacteria that produces acetic acid. These bacteria are present in your environment, when you concentrate them in a brewing situation, you will cross contaminate every thing in the area, they are hard to kill.
So don't let these guys lead you to believe there is no problem. You, Sumo have identified a problem, so extreme sanitation will be needed, beyond a little starsan.

I really wish people would make sure they know what they are talking about, before giving out poor advice. You do no one any favors, talking out your azz. :-)

Good luck Sumo, let us know how the clean-up goes.
I nominate this for post of the year.

You're either trolling, or just really, really wrong on several levels. You're also violating the forum rules. Thanks for the laugh though.
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Old 12-21-2013, 11:12 PM   #7
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TNGABE, I call you out personally. I don't usually do this, I hate trolls, I am not one. Please, in a scientific way, even layman terms, explain to me why I am wrong!
These bacteria are 10k times smaller than a yeast cell and can hide in every nook and cranny, scratch, blemish in anything and won't be killed very easy.
TNGABE, you don't like to be called wrong, I am sorry, your wrong!. Now explain to me why I am wrong and I will concede.
You called Saison yeast sacchromyces, when it is really, Brettanomyces. It's not the same, or near any sacchromyces strains. It does not reproduce the same. Many things about it is different.
I am waiting for a reply to explain my ignorance! :-)

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Old 12-21-2013, 11:43 PM   #8
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1. Saison yeast is saccharomyces. There are saison cultures mixed with brettanomyces, but not all saison yeast cultures contain brett. Most of the commercially available strains do not contain brett.
2. Noticing a line from a mini-krausen in the bottle is at least somewhat normal. Sometimes I see it, sometimes I don't.
3. Yeast sticking to the side of the bottle, I have only seen with saisons, but I have read that others have experienced this with other yeasts.
4. "...but gradually get more dry, tart and carbonated..." Assuming that you verified that fermentation had completed prior to bottling, this is an indication of an infection. Granted that saisons tend to be more dry and tart than other beers, so I can understand how you started thinking about a potential saison issue, but even saisons only ferment so far and require oxygen. What you have described requires a bacteria or yeast that thrives in an acidic, anaerobic environment.

So, you do have something in there, just not what you originally thought. I had a brett infection a little over a year ago; after cleaning and double-checking that everything was clean I soaked everything (primary, autosiphon, racking tube, carboy and airlock) in potassium metabisulfite solution; if it happened again I would soak in Star-San.

What do you normally use for cleaning and sanitizing? How do you clean your racking tube?

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Old 12-21-2013, 11:49 PM   #9
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Hey johnnv, think you're confusing Belgian Ale Yeast (of which Saison is one) with Lambics. There are sour Saison’s, but they are not made solely with the Belgian Saison strain commercially available from Wyeast and White Labs.

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Old 12-21-2013, 11:51 PM   #10
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You called Saison yeast sacchromyces, when it is really, Brettanomyces. It's not the same, or near any sacchromyces strains. It does not reproduce the same. Many things about it is different.
So not true. Do some research and you will find that Saison yeasts are in fact sacchromyces strains. Let' look at the most common Saison strains. WY 3711... no brett. WY3724. again no brett. White labs. 565.. no brett. White Labs 566 no brett. Belle Saison... guess what.. no brett.

Here is the page for Bele Saison.
http://www.danstaryeast.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/tds-belle-saison-english_0.pdf
See what it is?



Quote:
I really wish people would make sure they know what they are talking about, before giving out poor advice. You do no one any favors, talking out your azz. :-)
You really should take your own advice......

TNGabe and I have had a few disagreements over the years, but I agree with him on this. I know he brews a lot of Saisons and Belgians and really does know what he is talking about.
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