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Old 03-11-2013, 05:28 AM   #1
Jlaw3000
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Default Saison 3724 how fast is too fast to raise the temp

Just started a partial mash saison fermenting about 32 hours ago. (Afternoon on 3/9/13)
5 gal glass carboy.
OG: 1.058 (on the dot for the recipe)
pitch temp: 72 wyeast 3724 from bag directly at 72 degrees as well. (I know, should have done a starter, however this bag was REALLY new, puffed up fast and full, not worried about that).

Ambient temp in my house right now is 64-72 (Colorado)

So... I let ferm start wrapped it in a sleeping bag stuffed in a big round plastic tupperware. Fermentation signs at 4 hours, full on krausen blow off by this morning (5-6 bubbles per second at least), really looking good especially for not using a starter. Still going strong, 2 bubbles per second 32 hours later.

-Temp rose naturally to about 76. I have a heat pad I was planning on sticking under the whole get up to get into the 80s and keep the climb going.
-My Problem: Heat pad can "stay on" indefinitely but does not have a thermostat per say, lowest it goes is ~82 or 83. So, if I put the pad under my whole get up it will rise to that temp pretty quickly. Would this be bad (kill my yeasty friends), or should I apply that heat intermittently over a few days? I can see it getting up there in a day if just left with heat. After the initial heat I can step it up gradually but 82-83 is just the lowest setting.

I'm thinking the activity will naturally keep it around 76 till day 2 or 3, when should I apply the heat pad?

Really don't want to use an aquarium heater and have read most forums on 3724 but could just use some advice. New poster, newer to brewing. Thanks and Cheers!

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Old 03-11-2013, 12:44 PM   #2
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If it stays at 76 for a few days that is fine. 3724 can slow down after the first part of fermentation, so get the temp up for it to finish. I usually take it to the high 80's or even 90 after a few days. Doing this I have always had it finish up without slowing down.

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Old 03-11-2013, 12:55 PM   #3
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I brewed a saison this winter with fermentation temp naturally settling at 74 on the second day. I rose the temp 2 degrees per day for the next 3 days to 80 and held it there for 4 days. By day 6 the SG had dropped from 1.061 to 1.012. I then took the heat off , let the temp fall back to 68, and held it there another week. I did dump trub out of my conical on day 3 and 6, so you might want to rack off of the trub once you hit your terminal gravity.

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Old 03-11-2013, 02:27 PM   #4
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Thanks guys! I plan on starting the temp ramp today. Is it to fast to go from 76 to 82 in under 24 hours?

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Old 03-11-2013, 05:13 PM   #5
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Also, recipe says FG will be 1.012 (seems high to me). I've heard this stuff can dry out far beyond. Would hate to rack and bottle at 1.012 prematurely, especially considering it is known for hanging out around there for a few days. 3 day rule still apply for no change in FG or should i go a week with no change?

Recipe:
5lb Pils LME
1lb Munich LME
.5lb Golden naked oats
.5lb honey malt
.5lb table sugar.

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Old 03-11-2013, 06:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlaw3000 View Post
Also, recipe says FG will be 1.012 (seems high to me). I've heard this stuff can dry out far beyond. Would hate to rack and bottle at 1.012 prematurely, especially considering it is known for hanging out around there for a few days. 3 day rule still apply for no change in FG or should i go a week with no change?

Recipe:
5lb Pils LME
1lb Munich LME
.5lb Golden naked oats
.5lb honey malt
.5lb table sugar.
The BJCP style guide calls for Saison to rand in OG from 1.048 to 1.065, with FG from 1.002 - 1.012. You mentioned in your first post that OG was 1.058 - close to the top of the range. My last Saison started at 1.061 and finished at 1.012 (measured on day 6 and say 14), and most of the recipes I've seen finish in the 1.010 - 1.013 range. Based on those two reference points, I'd expect yours to finish pretty close to 1.012, maybe 1.010. I think it would be a stretch to get to 1.002 - and may require higher fermentation temperatures.

I don't think you'll hurt anything waiting a few extra days to see if the gravity will drop as long as you rack of the trub after a week or so. Keep in mind that the higher the temperature and the longer your yeast stays there, the more yeast "funk" you'll introduce to your Saison. Funk isn't bad in a Saison - in my opinion it's a hallmark of a Saison - just something to be aware of.

I'm an all grain brewer and have very little experience brewing with LME, so I can't really comment on your recipe - but the sugar should help dry the beer out some, so you may get to your lower target. Here's a link to my recipe if it will help you in any way - http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/saison-du-rivage.

So if you want to, got hot, go long, and see if you can get to a lower FG. I hope you'll post your results. Good luck!
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In Kegs: Pharaoh's Phavorite - Emmer Ale; Stout; Vienna Lager; S'Mores Porter; Heady Topper clone
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prandlesc View Post
The BJCP style guide calls for Saison to rand in OG from 1.048 to 1.065, with FG from 1.002 - 1.012. You mentioned in your first post that OG was 1.058 - close to the top of the range. My last Saison started at 1.061 and finished at 1.012 (measured on day 6 and say 14), and most of the recipes I've seen finish in the 1.010 - 1.013 range. Based on those two reference points, I'd expect yours to finish pretty close to 1.012, maybe 1.010. I think it would be a stretch to get to 1.002 - and may require higher fermentation temperatures.

I don't think you'll hurt anything waiting a few extra days to see if the gravity will drop as long as you rack of the trub after a week or so. Keep in mind that the higher the temperature and the longer your yeast stays there, the more yeast "funk" you'll introduce to your Saison. Funk isn't bad in a Saison - in my opinion it's a hallmark of a Saison - just something to be aware of.

I'm an all grain brewer and have very little experience brewing with LME, so I can't really comment on your recipe - but the sugar should help dry the beer out some, so you may get to your lower target. Here's a link to my recipe if it will help you in any way - http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/saison-du-rivage.

So if you want to, got hot, go long, and see if you can get to a lower FG. I hope you'll post your results. Good luck!
Great information, thanks for your time! I'll be sure to post results. I have found TONS of threads on people weighing in on the use of 3724 but only 5 or 6 people documenting their actual experience with it well.

It stayed at 76* overnight last night in my 64* spare room (sleeping bag ftw) and I put the heat pad under before I went to work this morning and gave it a slight swirl (still chugging along, 1-2 bubs per second) . Hopefully it doesn’t get too warm too fast.

I too love the funk (plan on taking it to the high 80s), two relatively new breweries here in Fort Collins have some AMAZING saisons (Funkwerks and Black Bottle Brewery). So at least I know what I'm shooting for

Would gladly hear others thoughts on ^^^! Another update soon. Thanks again,
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:34 PM   #8
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I remember seeing an e-mail from White Labs or Wyeast floating around somewhere where they recommend 90 deg F from the start with this yeast strain. I've heard DuPont starts at 95. So based on that, you can't raise the temp too fast.

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Old 03-12-2013, 12:46 AM   #9
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I remember seeing an e-mail from White Labs or Wyeast floating around somewhere where they recommend 90 deg F from the start with this yeast strain. I've heard DuPont starts at 95. So based on that, you can't raise the temp too fast.
Here's the verbiage from Wyeast's website - it indicates high temperatures if there's a stuck fermentation -

"This strain is the classic farmhouse ale yeast. A traditional yeast that is spicy with complex aromatics, including bubble gum. It is very tart and dry on the palate with a mild fruitiness. Expect a crisp, mildly acidic finish that will benefit from elevated fermentation temperatures. This strain is notorious for a rapid and vigorous start to fermentation, only to stick around 1.035 S.G. Fermentation will finish, given time and warm temperatures. Warm fermentation temperatures, at least 90°F (32°C), or the use of a secondary strain can accelerate attenuation.

Origin:
Flocculation: Low
Attenuation: 76-80%
Temperature Range: 70-95F, 21-35C
Alcohol Tolerance: 12% ABV"
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In Fermenters:Off Wit - Wheat Ale with Triticale and Chocolate Rye;
In Kegs: Pharaoh's Phavorite - Emmer Ale; Stout; Vienna Lager; S'Mores Porter; Heady Topper clone
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:24 AM   #10
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I've used the White Labs equivalent (Dupont) twice and both times finished at ~90% within 7 days. I start at 70, let it ramp naturally as high as it will go, about 72, then ramp to 76 for two days, then ramp to 80 for 2-3 days or until FG. I mash at 144 for 1.5 hrs, then at 152 for another 1 hr., which I think is key to finishing saisons quickly.

Have you tried WL 585 Saison III? That also makes a wonderful saison and does not require high temps (mine finished at 92% at 74F). Not sure what the Wyeast equivalent is.

Cheers!

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