winvarin

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I'm writing this in hopes that somebody can confirm that I may just not like British yeasts. It's either that or I have made 3 duds in the last year that just happened to have a similar yeast in common.

In the past year, I have made 3 beers with 2 different strains of British style yeasts.

I first made an Oatmeal stout (all grain) with WLP002 in early 2011. After bottling and allowing to condition about 3 weeks, I tasted it an noticed an "off" flavor. The flavor is really hard to describe but it seemed to be almost "clovey". Not quite as spicy as cloves but it didn't quite seem right in the beer. It was much more prevalent when the beer was cold, and almost disappeared when the beer warmed up.

I then made a standard bitter (also all grain, Feb-March 2011). It had an aroma that was similar to the one from the stout, but it took on a more artificial character, almost like the smell of warm/burning plastic. It was pretty hard to narrow this one down as the beer went south pretty fast due to an infection I traced back to a cut in an old transfer hose. I pitched out the hose and this beer pretty quick, so I never did any further troubleshooting.

Fast-forward to November. I made another Oatmeal Stout, this time from an extract kit. It had some non-yeast problems to begin with. I did a full wort boil and miscalculated my boil off. I didn't boil off enough water so I wound up 8-10 points shy on my OG, and the beer is more of a dark brown than black. I also got distracted during the boil and put both my 30 and 10 min additions in at 30 min. So it's got more of a bite from the Cascades than I was wanting.

But this thread is about yeast. I used S-04 for the first time. Rehydrated in boiled and cooled water. Pitched at about 68F.

My first sign of trouble was the temp this beer spent the critical first 72 hours at. I pitched on a Sunday night with the stick on thermometer showing 68F and my fermentation fridge set at and holding a respectable 65F. When I got home Monday night, the stick on thermometer was registering between 72 and 74, meaning that it was surely hotter than that in the wort. I took to the forums and was assured that this yeast is a hot fermenter and my best bet was to try to keep it at bay with my fridge controller.

I did that, but I tried to bring it down gradually, not wanting to shut the yeast down by cold crashing it. As a result, it took me almost a day and a half to get it to stay consistently between 66 and 68F.

I do a 3 week primary with most of my ales, then straight to the keg if the gravity has dropped and stayed steady. But at 3 weeks, this one, even with the hot start, was still a couple of points higher than I would have expected, even if I had not missed my OG. I left it an extra week for good measure and got another 3 points out of it. After 4 days of steady readings, I kegged.

At kegging I immediately noticed the same "hot plastic" aroma that I'd had with the 002 earlier in the year. Tasting it, it had a flavor that matched the aroma. The only difference from the 002 batch is that the aromas and flavors are much stronger with s-04 than they were with the white labs yeast. A few weeks down the road, the plastic-y aroma is still there. But the flavor has settled to more of a strong clovey taste. Both of these dissipate as the beer warms. I did wind up getting more spashing than I had anticipated when kegging, so it's possible that there is a bit of oxidation at play as well.

So I pose the following questions:
1. Do these sound like fermentation related flaws, or is this just a standard ester profile for a British yeast?
2. If its the esters that come standard with British yeasts, did I just accentuate it by letting the temp get out of hand with the s-04? Or is the profile that much stronger with s-04 than it is with wlp002?
3. I have another extract beer on deck (got a couple as a gift from a family member and am just trying to get them brewed while the ingredients are still relatively fresh). This one is a Fuller's London Pride clone from highgravity.com. I have a packet of Notty (which I have also never brewed with) to use with it. My experience with the s-04 has left me a little gun shy. How does Notty rate in terms of ester profile vs. s-04? Am I going to be able to suppress them somewhat if I ferment cold enough? Or am I in line for another clovey, plasticy beer?

Note: Before anybody starts up the long primary vs. primary/secondary argument again ... I am in the long primary crowd. But that being said, I would be perfectly willing to accept that on this most recent beer (the extract stout) that the combination of a hot ferment plus just a touch more than a month on the primary yeast cake, could have resulted in some degree of autolysis (and the plastic aroma/flavor). Add to that the fact that my beer was shy on gravity anyway, and I can see where the flavor would really stand out.

BendBrewer

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I hear you and came to the conclusion that I just don't like certain yeast strains. I keep it simple and stick with brewing Ales. Try US-05. If you like it, use it in everything like I do.

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Yooper

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Hot plastic flavors aren't esters- instead they are phenols. That doesn't usually come from British yeast, more from Belgian yeast strains. Another source of phenols is chlorine in the brewing water, infection, and stressed yeast.

Esters do come standard on many British yeast strains. S04 gets estery above 68 degrees, but I ferment it at 62 degrees and it's super "clean" at that temperature. When those British yeast flavors come out, then tend to be a bit fruity, maybe like pears or apples, but definitely not like cloves.

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winvarin

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That's the kicker. There are a number of British beers I enjoy. And I am sure most of them are brewed with one English strain or another. After the s-04 beer was kegged, I did some reading and found that it seems to be particularly strong in terms of esters.

I also thought that I might have spoiled my palate a bit. I spent most of the summer brewing with us05. It's entirely possible that I am used to its clean finish as well

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midfielder5

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You can ferment Notty cold (60-62*) and it should stay clean. Or you can just chuck it into the boil as yeast food and pitch US-05 as BendBrewer said.

winvarin

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Wonder if it's stress then? I know I got over 74F for quite some time on the stout that's been the most striking.

Not likely to be chlorine. I used 100% bottled distilled water on this one. I sanitize with StarSan, so not likely bleach. And everything gets a good oxyclean soak (kegs and fermenters) after use for drinking or fermenting. All of my other cold side brewday gear gets a good heavy rinse and dry at the end of brew day. On brew day itself, everything gets a rinse to ensure there is no dust or anything on it. Then a thorough StarSan bath before touching the wort

Yooper

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It would be strange to have three different brews exhibit this flavor, though, even if it is stressed yeast. I know nottingham gets positively foul if it goes over 72 degrees or so- so it's possible that the other strains do too. Nottingham is awesome under 72 degrees, particularly at 60 degrees, but gets hot and solventy over 72 degrees.

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winvarin

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I did have an infection caused by transfer equipment last year. But I replaced everything in my transfer rig after that and fermented/bottled/kegged several clean beers with it before this stout that has been the most trouble. And that most recent stout, I used brand-new tubing on kegging day.

I'm really scratching my head on this one

bierhaus15

Recipes 

It sounds like you are fermenting too warm and possibly under-pitching/oxygenating.

British yeast can be very finicky as their fermentation characteristics are easily impacted by pitch temp, aeration, cell count, and ferment temp. It is a good rule of thumb to pitch low (64F) and slowly bring the ferment temp up to no more than 68F (for most strains) by high krausen. Also, underpitching British strains is a sure way to get harsh esters, same with insufficient aeration.

Also, realize that Notty and S-04 are notorious for throwing bad esters at warm temps. I use Notty probably once a year and I always make sure to keep it under 65F. S-04 is another strain that once you let get around 70F, it will ruin the beer. Lastly, wy1968/wlp002 can be a tricky yeast to get the most out of. It likes lots of oxygen and a pretty healthy yeast pitch - at a low temp. Moreover, since it is such a high flocculator, the yeast can get reactivated in the bottle, leading to over carbonation and off flavors.

robtotten

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I used s04 all the time, probably more than any other strain, and I've never had flavors quite like that.

Some yeasts handle higher temperatures (lower 70s) well, but I think that 74+ early in fermentation sounds too high for this strain. I pitched too high (72) once in the middle of summer because my chiller water was too warm and the batch sucked. The flavors went beyond the fruity esters I expected and threw some slightly phenolic off flavors, but more medicinal than "hot plastic" or clove. It was pretty nasty. After that I cooled the beer down to appropriate pitching temperature whether that meant I could pitch immediately or not. Problem solved. I try to keep the beer itself (not the ambient / fridge temp) no higher than 67 the first three days of active fermentation and I get a hint of mellow fruity esters. The subtle pear / sweet apple that you see mentioned regularly is part of it, but the flavor is a little more complex than that as well.

With that said, I don't like the strain in stouts. I almost always use US-05 or Nottingham for those. The astringency of the roasted grains & the esters of the s-04 don't go together well in my opinion.

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