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Old 01-17-2010, 03:43 PM   #1
ahicks58
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Default Problems with fermenting-Quick response appreciated

I am a beginning brewer, and I have a problem that I haven't had before. Last night I brewed a barley wine (OG about 1.100) and used White Labs WWLP001 yeast. It was my first experience with liquid yeast, and I followed the directions (storing it in the refridgerator, letting it warm to room temp before use, shaking well), but when I checked it this morning it still wasn't fermenting. I am concerned that maybe the yeast I bought was bad (does that ever happen?) or that I somehow killed it with my inexperience. The brewing store I visit for supplies/advice is closed on Sundays and Mondays, and I'm afraid the batch might spoil by Tuesday. I have an extra package of Muntons Active Brewing Yeast that came with a pale ale ingredient kit. If you were in my position, would you pitch it? Any prompt response would be greatly appreciated as I am concerned that the batch will go sour if I wait much longer to do something.

P.S. I don't know if this makes a difference, but I use a blow-off technique instead of a standard airlock.

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Old 01-17-2010, 03:49 PM   #2
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I don't know about pitching the dry yeast, but I'm sure your liquid yeast is fine. Before the good reverend sees this post and chastises you read this:

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Originally Posted by Revvy View Post
As to yeast viability;

Bobby M recently did a test on year old stored yeast here; http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/test...bility-126707/

And my LHBS cells outdated tubes and packs of yeast dirt cheap 2-3 dollars each and I usually grab a couple tubes of belgian or other interesting yeast when I am there and shove it in my fridge. and I have never had a problem with one of those tubes. I usually make a starter but I once pitched a year old tube of Belgian High Gravity yeast directly into a 2.5 gallon batch of a Belgian Dark Strong, and after about 4 days it took off beautifully.

I am going to give you all my standard rant about how, for the most part, the idea of "bad yeast" is really bogus....

Of a dozen or more starters and yeasts harvests, I have only had one that ever krauzened, and NONE that never took off, given enough time and patience.

Of god knows how many batches of beer I have made....I have never had fermentation not start, or a beer not turn out ok, and I have never ever ever had to add more yeast to a beer.

Except for infecting a starter due to poor sanitization, it really really is hard for yeast NOT to do what they do naturally.

That's how we can make a huge starter from the dregs of a bottle of beer...we let the viable (living) cells reproduce, and we feed them incrementally, and they continue to reproduce.

Seriously most LHBS know enough about what they are doing in terms of proper yeast storage, same with suppliers, it doesn't take a genius these days to know how to stick liquid (and dry yeasts usually) in a fridge, and ship in bulk in a styrofoam cooler.

We're talking billion dollar corporations (the yeast labs, and that's what they are LABS) and they aren't going to risk their rep by letting their suppliers and stores that carry their stuff , handle it improperly.

Besides...Yeast IS hardier than most newish brewers wanna give them props for...I mean You can't say that THIS YEAST was stored "properly" and yet, they managed to make a batch of beer with it.

45 million year old yeast ferments amber ale

If we can make beer with that....even the tiniest viable glop in a barely smacked pack, is going to work as well.

Gang I can't say this enough;

Unless you bought liguid yeast through the mail in the heat of summer, or added your yeast into boiling wort. your fermentation will happnen.

Yeast just don't not work anymore, that is an idea that came from the bad old days before homebrewing was legalized in 1978 when yeast came in hard cakes that travelled in hot cargo holds of ships ...And then sat under the lid of blue ribbon malt extract for god knows how long on grocery stores shelves.

But since 1978 yeast science has been ongoing and the yeasts of today, wet OR dry are going to work in 99.9% of the situations we have, if you give them the time to do so.

But every noob who starts an "my yeast is dead thread" just really pertpetuates a fear that has come from way back then, they got it from Papazain and other brew books written Thirty or more years ago, and were told horror stories of those yeasts, and it influenced their writing, which influence nervous noob brewers as well.

And then, most of the time, you new brewers then freak each other out!!!! You see an "infection" or "Not fermenting" thread title, or 10 on a given day and most of you don't even read the story behind it...you just see a dozen yeast is f-d up threads...and then believe my yeast has the potential to be f-d up.

But as the guy who answers those questions on a daily basis and finds out that no hydro reading was taken, nor has it been 72 hours, and THEY (not you) ARE going by airlock bubbling- AND when they do take a hydro reading or pop the bucket lid, they see that there was a krausen....and most of the time they actually post back, to say they were being paranoid, and fermentation DID happen.

But to someone who actually doesn't follow up on those threads, they think that yeast is so damn fragile....when it is the brewer's nerves that are.

But Unless you bought yeast through the mail in the heat of summer, or dumped it in boiling wort 99% of the time your yeast will do it's job...no matter what the title of many threads APPEAR to say.

Yeast handling and growing is a science, AND a BUSINESS[EVEN DRY YEAST GANG, they are all grown in labs, not fly by night operations (that's why the whole argument about dry being sub-par to liquid is really idiotic)..and with the internet, and books, and magazines, including this months BYO btw, even the most inbred LHBS employee SHOULD and probably does know how to properly handle and store yeast prior to selling it to you.



So Even if you don't pitch into the batch you planned and go with another yeast, don't toss out that starter. Give it a couple more feedings, wash it and either slant or mason jar it and store it for later use.

Yeast are really tenacious critters, except in the rarest and most extreme circumstances, they will survive, reproduce and work for you. If they can harvest 4500 year old yeast from a hunk of amber, then even a deflated smack pack, or properly stored outdated tube, will more than likely still have enough viable cells to reproduce into a starter.

I don't know if you know the story of Charlie Papazian's yeast (White Labs "Cry Havoc") or not. He talked about it on basic brewing. The recipes in both Papazian's books, The Complete Joy of Homebrewing and The Homebrewers Companion, were originally developed and brewed with this yeast. Papazian had "Cry Havoc" in his yeast stable since 1983.

He has used it nearly continuously since 83, sometimes pitching multiple batches on top of a cake, sometimes washing or not washing, etc. In a basic brewing podcast iirc last year he talked about how a batch of the yeast after a lot of uses picked up a wild mutation, and he noticed an off flavor in a couple batches.

Now most of us would prolly dump that yeast. Instead he washed it, slanted or jarred it (I can't recall which,)marked it, and cold stored it, and pretty much forgot about it for 10-15 years. He had plenty other slants of the yeast strain, so he left it alone.

Well evidently he came across that container of yeast, and for sh!ts and giggles made a beer with it. Evidently after all those years in storage, the wild or mutated yeast died out leaving behind a few viable cells of the "pure" culture, which he grew back into a pretty hardy strain...which iirc is the culture that White Labs actually used for their cry havoc...because of it's tenacity and survivability.

It really to me, just goes to show once again how really hard it is to f up this beermaking, and that to give the yeast the props they deserve.
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Last edited by BigB; 01-17-2010 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 01-17-2010, 04:02 PM   #3
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Yeah, you are a nervous noob....Besides what big b posted of mine (thanks dude!) here's some more for you to know.

First if you look at the sticky at the top of the beginners forum, you will see quite clearly that; fermentation can take up to 72 hours for the yeasties to start, it's called lag time. http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ferm...e-signs-43635/

ANd since you left out a crucial step, and that was not making a starter for it, ESPECIALLY for something as big as a barleywine, it's simply going to take awhile for the yeast to have enough sex to hopefully make enough little soldiers to do the work for you. So you quite simply WILL have a long lag time.

With any liquid yeast you really should make a starter for every beer above 1.025 starting graivty. It will get your yeast started working, and make a large volume of viable yeast, PLUS it will prove to you that indeed your yeast is alive so you won't wonder......

Give it time...but also get a dry yeast and keep it on hand...making a big beer like this, and without a starter you may get a stuck fermentation in about 2 weeks. the yeast MAY tucker out quite high...so in 2 weeks I would be taking a couple grav readings over 3 days and see where it's at. After 2 weeks it should POSSIBLY be at terminal gravity (a beer this big SHOULD be at least a month in primary, then another 6 in secondary...that's what I would do.)

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Old 01-17-2010, 04:38 PM   #4
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Better to be a nervous noob than a guy with a spoiled batch. Thanks guys, I really appreciate your input.

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Old 01-17-2010, 05:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
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Better to be a nervous noob than a guy with a spoiled batch. Thanks guys, I really appreciate your input.
Contrary to what you may believe at this stage of your experience, and despite all the "is my beer ruined?" threads, (which 99% are the same as yours, btw,) it really is hard to ruin your beer. Especially if you are just starting out and your gear is brand new.

If you read these collected stories you'll understand that our beer manages to survive, despite what we may do to it.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/what...t-great-96780/

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/neve...en-beer-73254/

If you followed the instructions and did even the most basic level of sanitization as per the instructions that came with you kit or recipe then it is 99.98% likely toyr beer is fine.

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Old 01-17-2010, 06:00 PM   #6
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I like to use a yeast pitching calculator, to see the proper amount of yeast that should be pitched into a wort. It takes into consideration things like the age of the yeast, and the OG of the wort. http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Assuming you used ultra fresh yeast, according to that calculator you should have pitched 4.3 vials of yeast with no starter. With a starter, and one vial of yeast, you should have used a 9 LITER starter! Since you pitched only about 1/4 of the yeast needed, it'll take a long time for the yeast to reproduce and get to the business of fermentation.

Keep it at a good middle range temperature for that yeast strain, and don't be suprised if it takes 3-5 days to get going. But it WILL get going eventually!

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