Kegconnection Complete Starter Kit and More Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Fermentation & Yeast > MrMalty Caculator - Are the vials to volume ratios linear?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-12-2012, 06:42 PM   #1
jtkratzer
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jtkratzer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lititz, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,799
Liked 38 Times on 38 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default MrMalty Caculator - Are the vials to volume ratios linear?

I'm brewing batches making 10 gallons of finished beer into kegs. I haven't done anything that I'd consider high gravity since starting all grain and I want to confirm that I can tweak the numbers on MrMalty.

Results indicate I need 3 vials of yeast in a 2.4 L starter for 11 gallons of wort. If I double the starter size to 5 liters, can I cut the number of packs in half? I know 1.5 packs of yeast is not a quantity one could buy. Just checking if the math works and the yeast behave that way.

Liquid yeast seems to be the highest priced ingredient and I don't mind making starters. I've never used more than single vial of yeast for any batch of beer. I usually make starters or used washed yeast with a starter.

I'm thinking if I do a 4L starter with a single vial, that puts me at roughly 400 billion cells per the pitching rate section of MrMalty. If I decant, and add another 2-4L, that should get me plenty of yeast.

Preference is to do one starter, but if I have to step it up for a beer this size, no worries.

Yes? No? Maybe?

__________________

Lifetime NRA Membership for $300 - 888-678-7894

Dual Stage Fermentation Chamber Build

My e-Brew Magic HERMS build

jtkratzer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2012, 06:49 PM   #2
jkendal
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Burton, TX
Posts: 219
Liked 12 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtkratzer View Post
I'm thinking if I do a 4L starter with a single vial, that puts me at roughly 400 billion cells per the pitching rate section of MrMalty. If I decant, and add another 2-4L, that should get me plenty of yeast.

Preference is to do one starter, but if I have to step it up for a beer this size, no worries.

Yes? No? Maybe?
I have a 10-gallon system. When I use liquid yeast I start with a 2L starter and then the next evening step it up to 4L. I get excellent results every time.
__________________

We've got provisions and lots of beer
The key word is survival on the new frontier
~ Donald Fagen

jkendal is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2012, 06:52 PM   #3
WoodlandBrew
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WoodlandBrew's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Malden, MA
Posts: 1,740
Liked 123 Times on 120 Posts
Likes Given: 57

Default

Yeast is expensive. That's why I went to saving slurries and counting cells.

Slide the "growth rate" slider to see how big the recommended starter is with less vials.

As for the volume of the starter, it isn't linear. As the inoculation rate drops (less vials to more wort) the growth also drops. I would figure out how much wort 100 billion cells (one vial) can support and pitch into that. Wait a day and add the remainder of the wort. See here for details:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/201...-starters.html

If you are interested in cell counts check this:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/201...viability.html

__________________

The 2nd edition is now available: Brewing Engineering
BLOG: Brewing Boiled Down Brewing science for those of us without a Ph.D

WoodlandBrew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2012, 06:56 PM   #4
Golddiggie
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Between here and there, and everywhere
Posts: 12,058
Liked 473 Times on 418 Posts
Likes Given: 266

Default

If you want to save vials of yeast (or not buy so many) check into making stepped starters. Yeastcalc.com will be of more help, there, than mr. malty. With two, or three, starter steps, you can get the same (or more) yeast than you would with a huge starter. Talking about each step being under 2-3L in size, compared with over 20L as a single step.

__________________
Hopping Tango Brewery

跟猴子比丟屎 ・ Gun HOE-tze bee DIO-se

On Tap: Caramel Ale, Mocha Porter II, MO SMaSH IPA
Waiting/Carbonating: 12.5% Wee Honey II, 8.9% Old Ale, English Brown Ale, Lickah ESB, Mocha Porter II
Fermenting
K1:
K2: Epic mead
K3: TripSix
On Deck: Caramel Ale
Aging:mead
Mead [bottled]:Oaked Wildflower Traditional, Mocha Madness, Blackberry Melomel, maple wine
Golddiggie is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2012, 07:02 PM   #5
jtkratzer
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jtkratzer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lititz, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,799
Liked 38 Times on 38 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

I have a 2L flask and just ordered a 5L flask as the 2L seems to be too small to do a single step for a 10 gallon batch of 1.075 or higher wort.

I'll check out the links, but I'm looking for simple without having to buy multiple yeast vials. When washing yeast, I measure the volume of the yeast slurry for pitching into a starter, but that's about it. I have two kids under 3 and I just want to make beer. I'd rather avoid spending 2 weeks on the starter with multiple steps of growth, chill, decant, add wort, repeat.

__________________

Lifetime NRA Membership for $300 - 888-678-7894

Dual Stage Fermentation Chamber Build

My e-Brew Magic HERMS build

jtkratzer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2012, 07:07 PM   #6
jtkratzer
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jtkratzer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lititz, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,799
Liked 38 Times on 38 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodlandBrew View Post
Yeast is expensive. That's why I went to saving slurries and counting cells.

Slide the "growth rate" slider to see how big the recommended starter is with less vials.

As for the volume of the starter, it isn't linear. As the inoculation rate drops (less vials to more wort) the growth also drops. I would figure out how much wort 100 billion cells (one vial) can support and pitch into that. Wait a day and add the remainder of the wort. See here for details:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/201...-starters.html

If you are interested in cell counts check this:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/201...viability.html
The stepped calculator is pretty sweet. A 4 liter starter of 1.040 wort followed up by a 1.5 liter step puts me at my target total cell count.
__________________

Lifetime NRA Membership for $300 - 888-678-7894

Dual Stage Fermentation Chamber Build

My e-Brew Magic HERMS build

jtkratzer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2012, 07:08 PM   #7
Golddiggie
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Between here and there, and everywhere
Posts: 12,058
Liked 473 Times on 418 Posts
Likes Given: 266

Default

Longest I've ever had a 3 step starter schedule take was 6-7 days. That was with older yeast too (over 4-6 months old), with a stirplate. If you don't have a stirplate get or make one ASAP. Not only will your starters finish faster, but you'll be able to make smaller ones too.

I typically use either my 2L or 3L flask (on the stirplate). I have yet to need to use my 5L flask by doing at least two steps.

BTW, I get Wyeast packs from the LHBS (Jasper's) for <$7/pack. Some stores sell them for about $8/pack. Online, you'll spend a lot on shipping charges. You can also wash/harvest yeast after it's been used. OR, get a single pack/vial, make a starter from it, gather that up and freeze it. Then just thaw out the vial you're going to use and make another starter to get the cell count up.. Serious savings to be had that way. I did that part of a starter I reserved. Stepped it up in my 2L flask a couple of times and froze 12 50ml vials of it. I should have enough yeast (of that strain) to easily go until they offer it again (Wyeast 1882-PC). Thinking about getting a couple of other strains and doing the same thing. Especially ones I can't easily get locally.

__________________
Hopping Tango Brewery

跟猴子比丟屎 ・ Gun HOE-tze bee DIO-se

On Tap: Caramel Ale, Mocha Porter II, MO SMaSH IPA
Waiting/Carbonating: 12.5% Wee Honey II, 8.9% Old Ale, English Brown Ale, Lickah ESB, Mocha Porter II
Fermenting
K1:
K2: Epic mead
K3: TripSix
On Deck: Caramel Ale
Aging:mead
Mead [bottled]:Oaked Wildflower Traditional, Mocha Madness, Blackberry Melomel, maple wine
Golddiggie is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2012, 07:10 PM   #8
zeg
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Lafayette, IN
Posts: 1,218
Liked 128 Times on 110 Posts
Likes Given: 137

Default

In general, no, it's not linear in either number of yeast packs or starter volume. If you hold these in constant ratio, then yes, it should be linear (so if you double the volume and pitch twice as much yeast, you will end up with twice as many cells).

There's an optimal pitching rate for maximum growth factor, which is one good target. However, since it's generally cheaper to increase the starter size (or do multiple steps), the financially optimal rate might differ. I recommend playing with yeastcalc.com to get a feel for this.

There's also a good discussion of this (with plots!) in the book "Yeast."

__________________
zeg is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2012, 07:13 PM   #9
zeg
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Lafayette, IN
Posts: 1,218
Liked 128 Times on 110 Posts
Likes Given: 137

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtkratzer View Post
The stepped calculator is pretty sweet. A 4 liter starter of 1.040 wort followed up by a 1.5 liter step puts me at my target total cell count.
I'd suggest playing with the numbers to do two similarly-sized steps or a smaller size in the first step and a larger in the second. The calculator is likely to be more accurate for modest growth factors. It is also likely to be gentler on the yeast.
__________________
zeg is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2012, 07:28 PM   #10
Golddiggie
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Between here and there, and everywhere
Posts: 12,058
Liked 473 Times on 418 Posts
Likes Given: 266

Default

I typically make a smaller starter for the first step, then the second (or third) so that it will still fit in the flask.

Also, yeast production date impacts the size of your starter. If the calculation tool doesn't have provisions for that, don't use it. Also be sure to enter that information into the tool. Otherwise, you won't get an accurate assessment.

__________________
Hopping Tango Brewery

跟猴子比丟屎 ・ Gun HOE-tze bee DIO-se

On Tap: Caramel Ale, Mocha Porter II, MO SMaSH IPA
Waiting/Carbonating: 12.5% Wee Honey II, 8.9% Old Ale, English Brown Ale, Lickah ESB, Mocha Porter II
Fermenting
K1:
K2: Epic mead
K3: TripSix
On Deck: Caramel Ale
Aging:mead
Mead [bottled]:Oaked Wildflower Traditional, Mocha Madness, Blackberry Melomel, maple wine
Golddiggie is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pneumatic Linear Actuators CoalCracker DIY Projects 3 09-19-2012 05:08 PM
Do recipe's scale up or down in a linear way? davekippen General Beer Discussion 3 08-10-2012 11:22 PM
Mash water volume ratios. Brewpastor All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 37 09-21-2011 07:57 PM
MrMalty - Two vials - Two Different Viability Dates yournotpeter Fermentation & Yeast 3 08-11-2010 08:58 AM
gravity and volume - linear ? kappclark All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 11-13-2007 12:28 AM