Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway - Enter Now!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Fermentation & Yeast > Long term yeast storage: agar vs. water

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07-23-2010, 03:46 PM   #11
Mateo
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Cooper City, Florida
Posts: 245
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

I have 3 different sizes. I am pretty sure they are 1, 2 and 3 dram vials. I like the long ones with round bottoms because they can go in a canning jar and will not fall over. I use an inoculation loop to pull a culture and then put it in a 1 dram vial to start my culture for a starter.

I try to keep a minimum of three vials of each of my yeasts, which are only 2. Kölsch and Budvar. I also have canning jars of washed yeast from brews. This is where I get 99% of brewing stock yeast and only go back to the vials if needed.

When I do a starter from a vial I work over a flame, flame the flame the vials opening and inoculate a 1 dram vial of wort that was 17 minutes in the pressure cooker.

Once it hits high barm I start stepping up on the stir plate. If you start on Monday you can have a good starter going for Saturday. If you have slow starting yeast its good to start on Friday and have the starter fully geared up by the following weekend. Its a little slow going from the loop to 1 liter, but little careful steps and you will have no problem.

Just remember you cannot compromise sanitation.

You will need to only do single colony selection once the ratio of bacteria to yeast starts to produce undesirable results in the beer. People repeat what they hear about mutations, however, the biggest threat is bacteria ratio. The mutations you will experience in your culturing might be beneficial to your brewing practices. The yeast will adapt to your techniques and environment, whether that means good beer or bad, fast or slow fermentation.

__________________
Primary: Alt
Primary: Alt
Kegged: Alt
Mateo is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-23-2010, 07:36 PM   #12
Randar
Damn right I got da brews
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
Randar's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 28,833
Liked 4594 Times on 4499 Posts
Likes Given: 2066

Default

Lots of opinions have been given on this. I can only speak to the method used at SWMBO's yeast genetics lab. It is to store in a glycerol solution in a -80c freezer. Yeast will keep "forever" in this environment. This can be replicated by a chest freezer, styrofoam cooler (bio-med quality aka THICK preferred) and some freeze-packs.

__________________
Randar is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-23-2010, 08:17 PM   #13
JohnMc
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 265
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Thought only the abstract's available for free viewing from this 1991 article, it looks like water will work fine for a few years (just not at 37 C) and it backs up Hansen's data:
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02681219180000651

Stabs (don't slant the agar in a tube, let it solidify and literally stab the inoculating needle or loop into it) with a sterile mineral oil overlay also work well.

__________________
JohnMc is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2010, 03:18 AM   #14
ThreeDogsNE
Good for what ales you
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: , Southwest Iowa
Posts: 590
Liked 21 Times on 17 Posts
Likes Given: 30

Default

The abstract:

A total of 1583 yeast isolates, mostly Candida albicans, has been maintained under sterile distilled water for periods ranging from 1 to 18 years. Overall, 71 (4·5%) of the isolates were not recoverable at 37°C. Survival of the yeasts was 97% in the first 5 years and 96% after 10 years. Isolates of Candida krusei and Saccharomyces cerevisiae were particularly unlikely to survive storage in water and these species should be preserved by other means if they are to be kept for more than a few years. All of the Candida guilliermondii (n = 19) and Candida parapsilosis isolates (n = 51) survived water storage. The water preservation method is inexpensive and simple and is recommended for maintenance of most yeasts isolated from clinical material.

Perhaps you are doing something really novel, or just want to preserve the pathogen from a good case of oral thrush or vaginitis? (SWMBO will NOT thank you!) Otherwise, preserving Candida species won't help you. Saccharomyces cerevesiae is our friend in brewing, making our wort into beer. Unless there are other articles to the contrary, it looks like you are swimming against the tide with your water preservation plans.

__________________
ThreeDogsNE is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2010, 05:05 AM   #15
SumnerH
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA, USA
Posts: 2,058
Liked 25 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

From my reading of most of the yeast ranching threads, the deoxygenated distilled water approach (stored at room temp) works very well for up to a year's storage. Beyond that, simple loop streaking isn't enough to culture it up again; during at least the 1-3 year period, putting several drops on the culture medium seems to work, though. It is a bit more work bringing it back to viability than a frozen yeast bank is. But not needing refrigeration can be a big win (frozen yeast banks or refrigerated agar plates can lose huge amounts of viability if you suffer a power outage).

To me, ease of use is as important as long-term storage (I save yeast to save money by not buying Wyeast/White Labs for every brew that needs those strains, not to keep strains around long-term that aren't easily available), so I wouldn't do it, but if your needs are different it's not a totally outlandish idea.

I've not tried it personally, so hopefully some of the people who actually did can chime in.

__________________

On deck: Little Bo Pils, Bretta Off Dead (Brett pale)
Secondary: Oude Bruin, Red Sky at Morning (Sour brown ale)
On tap: Saison Duphunk (sour), Amarillo Slim (IPA), Earl White (ginger/bergamot wit)
Bottled: Number 8 (Belgian Strong Dark Ale), Eternale (Barleywine), Ancho Villa (Ancho/pasilla/chocolate/cinnamon RIS), Oak smoked porter (1/2 maple bourbon oaked, 1/2 apple brandy oaked)

SumnerH is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2010, 05:33 AM   #16
Professor Frink
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Professor Frink's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,106
Liked 13 Times on 13 Posts

Default

You're best bet for long term storage is freezing with a cell permeable freezing agent, such as glycerol (15%). You can also use a non-permeable agent such as 1M sorbitol for shorter periods. Ideally you want to store at -80C, but -20C in a non-defrost freezer is sufficient for many years.

I have no doubt you may get viable yeast after many years in distilled water, but odds are you are bottlenecking for a population of yeast that does not resemble your original population.

__________________
Primary: Cherrywood Smoked Porter
60 Minute IPA
Secondary:
On tap:Amber Ale
Milk Stout

Lagering:


http://www.lazydogbrewery.com
Professor Frink is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2010, 12:04 PM   #17
JohnMc
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 265
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

ThreedogsNE, yeah, I saw that and, yeah, I know the difference between the various genera of yeast. The critical point is this one:

Quote:
if they are to be kept for more than a few years.
Not much beats a -80 glycerol stock or freeze drying, but most folks don't have access to -80 freezers or lyophilizers. Water's cheap, and apparently effective enough. This guy seems to make it work: http://www.alsand.com/beer/yeast/store_E.html He has some references as well.

The procedure one should follow would be to stock them and occasionally plate out a subsample to check for viability. When it starts to drop, bulk back up and put them back in storage.

Professor Frink's point
Quote:
but odds are you are bottlenecking for a population of yeast that does not resemble your original population.
is a good one. IMHO, it's valid for any method other than -80 stocks.

I have ~60 strains in glycerol stocks in a -80 freezer. Because I don't have to, I won't go near water storage. But if I didn't have access to deep freezers, I'd think long and hard about what to do. "Liquid Drying" might work, though one still needs access to a vacuum source, just no freezing needed.
__________________
JohnMc is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2010, 04:30 PM   #18
Islandboy85
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 634
Liked 8 Times on 7 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

My main goal is to have these yeast cultures on hand so I don't have to go buy yeast al the time. Where can I get glycerol?

__________________
Islandboy85 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-24-2010, 10:18 PM   #19
JohnMc
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 265
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

It's sold in drug stores and the health sections of mega stores as glycerin

__________________
JohnMc is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-26-2010, 05:49 PM   #20
Randar
Damn right I got da brews
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
Randar's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 28,833
Liked 4594 Times on 4499 Posts
Likes Given: 2066

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
The procedure one should follow would be to stock them and occasionally plate out a subsample to check for viability. When it starts to drop, bulk back up and put them back in storage.
Yet this is creating a new generation and each successive generation is less likely to be a match to the original. Again, it is introducing a point for mutation to become the dominant strain.
__________________
Randar is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Universal Beer Agar? FrostyBeverage Fermentation & Yeast 7 11-23-2011 03:15 PM
Proper agar recipe Budzu Fermentation & Yeast 3 03-03-2010 04:59 PM
Yeast Storage PatMac Fermentation & Yeast 1 01-25-2010 04:08 AM
Yeast Storage farrout Fermentation & Yeast 1 09-23-2009 09:49 PM
Innoculated Refirgerated Agar Slant shelf life Sawdustguy Fermentation & Yeast 6 09-03-2009 02:24 PM