Lager Fermentation Woes

Hey folks,

Last week I brewed my first lager - Papazian's Rocky Raccoon Honey Ginger Lager. Brewing went smoothly, it's an easy extract/honey based recipe. My OG was 1.058. At the time I hadn't read about the higher pitch rates necessary for lagers, so I pitched a Wyeast N American Lager packet from June/11. It didn't swell too much in the 3 hours it was out but I pitched it when the wort cooled to around 65. Then I put the carboy in a fridge set to the low 50s.

Nothing happened. After a few days I was wondering if I had a dud yeast packet so I put the carboy at room temperature to see if higher temps could get some activity going. Nothing.

Then I went and picked up a White Labs Pilsner vial, followed the directions on that, and pitched it when the carboy was at room temp, then moved it back into the fridge at low 50s. I didn't want to create off flavors by leaving the carboy at room temp for longer. 3 days later, and the gravity isn't budging.

It's been 6 days total. I've read a lot about fermenting lagers since then and I now understand that it does take a while for them to start. 6 days seems like a while though. I've also read that lagers need a large yeast colony, and I wonder if I've been drastically under pitching. Therefore, I'm thinking my best course of action is to make a big starter and try again.

Lastly - all I have on hand is a 11.5g dry lager yeast packet. If the best course of action is to repitch, is it possible to create a sufficient colony from a dry yeast packet or must I go back to the store and get a liquid packet?

Thanks for looking!

Dry yeast packs do not need starters since the 11.5 grams is a large quantity and the yeast is pre-oxygenated.

You could do a 1L starter of one of the liquids you have used already and pitch that. It would take you about 48 hrs to get that pitchable, or...

You could pitch the dry yeast after rehydration. This would give you quite a yeast blend, not necessarily bad just not predictable with regard to flavor compounds.

In any case, you might consider about 1gr/gallon of GoFerm yeast nutrient, I use it in all of my starters also.

EDIT: I would also rouse that yeast daily and top off the dead space with CO2 each time. Just slowly bleed CO2 into the carboy until a match/lighter is extinguished at the lip of the carboy.

Keep us posted...

Thanks helibrewer.

I think I'll try the dry packet since I already have it on hand.

Question - when you say rouse the yeast, can this be done by simply swirling the carboy? Also, does one top off dead space with CO2? I assume I would need special equipment for this that I don't have.

noahjk89 said:

Thanks helibrewer.

I think I'll try the dry packet since I already have it on hand.

Question - when you say rouse the yeast, can this be done by simply swirling the carboy? Also, does one top off dead space with CO2? I assume I would need special equipment for this that I don't have.

Click to expand...

Better to stir than swirl if you are able. If you don't have a CO2 tank, don't worry about the top off, your fermentation will fill that space when it kicks in

Got it, I'll use my swirl stick. Hopefully I'll post back with some good news in a few days!

Good news - 3 days after repitching the dry yeast packet fermentation started and I took a 1.050 reading. Slowly but surely, I have fermentation. Thanks for the guidance.

Ok, now a reading 5 days later shows no movement again. Steady low 50s temp. I have krausen at the top. Another repitch, this time with a big starter? Move to higher temps to get it started? What to do!?

If you have krausen leave it alone. Lagers take awhile.

Update: I ended up taking it out of the fridge and fermenting at room temp. Then I racked and put it back in the fridge that stayed around 40 for about 3 weeks. Bottled yesterday and it tastes AMAZING!!!!

All in all I didn't do this lager like it should have been done but thankfully it worked out very well anyway.

Thanks for the replies folks.

I'm having some problems myself. I brewed a Marzen and a Pils almost 5 days ago and no activity, no Krausen, nothing. I used WPL800 and WLP820 but no starter. The yeast was fresh and at room temp when pitched and the wort was about 65-67F. I then cooled to 52F and have have been sitting there for almost 5 days at that temp. I was going to take a Hygrometer reading today to see if the SG is changed at all but not sure whats left for me to do other than through some other yeast in? Thought about swirling and bringing back up to 65-67F for a few days but not sure if this will cause oxidization? I could stick a CO2 line into the bottom and stir it up that way?

I took some SG readings, not much has changed. The Marzen had maybe changed from the OG of 1.05 to about 1.049, hard to tell. The Pils is about the same, OG 1.042 is now maybe 1.040 but again when its that close its hard for me to tell if its actually changed. No krausen no air lock activity except after i replaced the lids and moved it. So 5 days and really no change. If i under pitched should i just wait longer or warm it up to 65 or so for 3 days? Should i keep them in the primarys for 3-4 weeks before racking to the secondary?

helibrewer said:

Dry yeast packs do not need starters since the 11.5 grams is a large quantity and the yeast is pre-oxygenated.

You could do a 1L starter of one of the liquids you have used already and pitch that. It would take you about 48 hrs to get that pitchable, or...

You could pitch the dry yeast after rehydration. This would give you quite a yeast blend, not necessarily bad just not predictable with regard to flavor compounds.

In any case, you might consider about 1gr/gallon of GoFerm yeast nutrient, I use it in all of my starters also.

EDIT: I would also rouse that yeast daily and top off the dead space with CO2 each time. Just slowly bleed CO2 into the carboy until a match/lighter is extinguished at the lip of the carboy.

Keep us posted...

Click to expand...

wrong...

11.5g of 100% viable and properly reconstituted dry yeast is not even half the yeast cell count needed for this beer. go to mrmalty.com, read the stuff about starters, and use the yeast calculator.

Also, yeast are never "pre-oxygenated" no matter what form they come to you in. the WORT must be oxygenated.

yeast nutrient is nice and all but it's no substitution for proper pitching rates.

Greatwhite4 said:

I took some SG readings, not much has changed. The Marzen had maybe changed from the OG of 1.05 to about 1.049, hard to tell. The Pils is about the same, OG 1.042 is now maybe 1.040 but again when its that close its hard for me to tell if its actually changed. No krausen no air lock activity except after i replaced the lids and moved it. So 5 days and really no change. If i under pitched should i just wait longer or warm it up to 65 or so for 3 days? Should i keep them in the primarys for 3-4 weeks before racking to the secondary?

Click to expand...

If you are going to underpich by 50% like you did you need to keep it around 65 or so until fermentation starts then lower it down to 50. So if you can warm it up rouse the yeast wait for it to start then cool it back down.

Yea i'm learning to not pay attention to the kits instructions

I swirled them both yesterday for a good couple of minutes and got some airlock activity today. Going to raise the temp regardless for a couple days then drop it back down as suggested. Does doing this cause any off flavours or should a good diacetyl rest before the secondary help?

Do the d-rest let it lager and taste it. That is the only way to tell how it works out.

Thanks for the help! I have to read more on starters and just ordered some gear to help!

thegerm said:

wrong...

11.5g of 100% viable and properly reconstituted dry yeast is not even half the yeast cell count needed for this beer. go to mrmalty.com, read the stuff about starters, and use the yeast calculator.

Also, yeast are never "pre-oxygenated" no matter what form they come to you in. the WORT must be oxygenated.

yeast nutrient is nice and all but it's no substitution for proper pitching rates.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Dry yeast contains all the nutrients for a healthy start and IF you pitch enough yeast then you don't need to oxygenate. Oxygenation of the wort after it is boiled allows the production of amino acids needed for the yeast cells to promote good growth iirc.
I like to use pure O2 to oxygenate my wort even though most of the time I pitch dry yeast.

Greatwhite4 said:

I swirled them both yesterday for a good couple of minutes and got some airlock activity today. Going to raise the temp regardless for a couple days then drop it back down as suggested. Does doing this cause any off flavours or should a good diacetyl rest before the secondary help?

Click to expand...

I make a lot of lagers and what I do is first to get my wort down to around 50f and then pitch properly prepared yeast into well aerated/oxygenated wort.

My properly prepared yeast will be at or slightly below the fermentation temperatures when I pitch. I start with rehydrating the yeast in 100f water and letting it bloom for 15 minutes. I then stir the yeast into a cream. I then start adding a little wort at a time to the yeast to climatize the yeast to the pitching temperatures ( you don't want to shock the yeast with cold before getting the yeast used to the temperature ) when I get it to the required temperature, I just pour it into the wort.
I get up to 12 hours lag time, even using this method, sometimes.

It could be that you guys were stalling out your yeast by pitching and then lowering temps. I believe that dropping the temp of active yeast often has the result of making them go dormant. Better to chill to the proper temp (or slightly below) and let the beer warm a touch naturally to really get the yeasties going.

The pilsner turned out okay, the marzen not so well, smells a bit sour. I agree that I didn't aerate properly, I pitched room temp yeast into cool wort, didn't do a starter etc etc.