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Old 06-30-2011, 07:20 PM   #11
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In this day and age, with all the literature available...
We really need a facepalm graphic.

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Old 06-30-2011, 08:25 PM   #12
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In this day and age, with all the literature available...
You took the words out of my mouth
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:05 PM   #13
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I'm a little surprised by the reaction. Particulary since some of the longer brewers I woudl have though would know what I'm about to share, although perhaps they do and discounted it.

I made my comment about mold because the picture isn't clear enough for me (others with better vision or there in person are perfectly welcome to see yeast rafts, which is more probable). However, with respect to mold, and without having gone through lots of mold pictures, I refer to this byo magazine post

http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/article/section/121-mr-wizard/1283-protein-rests-moldy-extract

specifically this paragraph
"Another reason to avoid using moldy malt or malt extract is that certain molds produce mycotoxins (toxins from mold) when they grow. Although many mycotoxins are completely destroyed when heated, some mycotoxins become more toxic when heated, as is the case with certain types of aflotoxin."

So IF it were mold then it could be toxic, which may get better with heating, or worse (isn't that easy). I admit that it refers to malt extract, not what is essentially wort, Which gets back to being able to see if it is furry or not, and what molds look like. For 6/pack of yeast vrs mold that may or may not be toxic? I'll spend $6, if I was pretty sure it was yeast rafts, I'd probably use it.

Thank you.

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Old 07-01-2011, 12:00 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by ACbrewer View Post
I'm a little surprised by the reaction. Particulary since some of the longer brewers I woudl have though would know what I'm about to share, although perhaps they do and discounted it.

I made my comment about mold because the picture isn't clear enough for me (others with better vision or there in person are perfectly welcome to see yeast rafts, which is more probable). However, with respect to mold, and without having gone through lots of mold pictures, I refer to this byo magazine post

http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/article/section/121-mr-wizard/1283-protein-rests-moldy-extract

specifically this paragraph
"Another reason to avoid using moldy malt or malt extract is that certain molds produce mycotoxins (toxins from mold) when they grow. Although many mycotoxins are completely destroyed when heated, some mycotoxins become more toxic when heated, as is the case with certain types of aflotoxin."

So IF it were mold then it could be toxic, which may get better with heating, or worse (isn't that easy). I admit that it refers to malt extract, not what is essentially wort, Which gets back to being able to see if it is furry or not, and what molds look like. For 6/pack of yeast vrs mold that may or may not be toxic? I'll spend $6, if I was pretty sure it was yeast rafts, I'd probably use it.

Thank you.
yup, that's kinda where I was going w/ my peace of mind comment. it's tough to tell from a photo. another option would be to bring it to a club or lhbs for their assessment.
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Old 07-01-2011, 02:07 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACbrewer View Post
I'm a little surprised by the reaction. Particulary since some of the longer brewers I woudl have though would know what I'm about to share, although perhaps they do and discounted it.

I made my comment about mold because the picture isn't clear enough for me (others with better vision or there in person are perfectly welcome to see yeast rafts, which is more probable). However, with respect to mold, and without having gone through lots of mold pictures, I refer to this byo magazine post

http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/article/section/121-mr-wizard/1283-protein-rests-moldy-extract

specifically this paragraph
"Another reason to avoid using moldy malt or malt extract is that certain molds produce mycotoxins (toxins from mold) when they grow. Although many mycotoxins are completely destroyed when heated, some mycotoxins become more toxic when heated, as is the case with certain types of aflotoxin."

So IF it were mold then it could be toxic, which may get better with heating, or worse (isn't that easy). I admit that it refers to malt extract, not what is essentially wort, Which gets back to being able to see if it is furry or not, and what molds look like. For 6/pack of yeast vrs mold that may or may not be toxic? I'll spend $6, if I was pretty sure it was yeast rafts, I'd probably use it.

Thank you.
I'm not going to go into a whole screed about the sheer rarity of mycotoxic pathogins of any type in homebrewing, because we "experienced brewers" have already written in many threads about it already. We do perhaps know more about it than you do, and indeed HAVE discounted it. Or at least looked into the facts more than just surfacely.

Go read the information here., or here as well, if you want to go beyond the fearmongering into actual truth.

We have put plenty of information all over here countering it.

This is one thing discussing mycotoxins,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosbrewing
OK, so given my line of work I have access to Medline, which is a database of most scientific and medical journals published since 1955. A quick search for "beer" resulted in ~5000 journal articles. Another search of "pathogen" resulted ~53,000 articles, and a search of "infection" resulted ~600,000 articles. When I crossed beer with either or both of the other search terms, it gave me a total of 60 articles. Most of these were discussing risk factors for contracting HIV and/or hepatitis, or TB. A handful discussed infections in beer causing gushers, and there was the one study looking at levels of mycotoxins in beer. In that study, the levels reported were so low that they had to be verified by another testing apparatus, and there was no mention of what (if anything) the low levels would do to you if you drank them.

What I did not find, however, was any mention of any pathogen that causes harm found in beer.
Also Fusarium, the mycotoxin he's referring to, that you're so afraid of isn't a mold, it's a fungus, it's discussed quite heavily in the thread I linked. And a lot of information out there is leading many of us to believe that it has pretty much been eradicated from the brewing grain crop anyway. Or at least heavily limited in the crop.

And it's something found on GRAIN, not extract, it wouldn't surviving the BOILING that goes into making the extract, and if on some rare instance it did, it wouldn't survive the NEXT BOILING, that of the starter wort, or the THIRD BOILING, that of the beer itself.

I will say that mold on the surface of the beer, means nothing. It's quite common actually. Mold on the surface happens when the co2 barrier is breached and the surface of the beer may grow mold, where the beer or wort comes into contact with oxygen...just the surface, nothing below it is harmed.

It doesn't mean the beer's infected, it doesn't mean the beer's tainted, it doesn't mean the beer's poisonous, it doesn't even mean the beer is ruined.

Many of us have had mold on the surface and have simply carefully racked the beer away, leaving the mold and about an inch of the beer behind. And have gone on to keg and bottle the beer, and it's been perfectly.

I'll say it again, like we say on here constantly, nothing pathogengenic can survive in beer.

So you can choose to take a little paragraph completely out of context and fear you beer, or you can understand the simple fact...NOTHING THAT CAN HARM YOU CAN EXIST IN BEER. It's really that simple.

And Pearson, the best thing for peace of mind, is the knowledge not ignorance, or half truths, or fear mongering. And there's plenty of knowledge about the ABSOLUTE safety of homebrewing around, especially on here.
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Old 07-01-2011, 02:15 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACbrewer View Post
I'm a little surprised by the reaction. Particulary since some of the longer brewers I woudl have though would know what I'm about to share, although perhaps they do and discounted it.

I made my comment about mold because the picture isn't clear enough for me (others with better vision or there in person are perfectly welcome to see yeast rafts, which is more probable). However, with respect to mold, and without having gone through lots of mold pictures, I refer to this byo magazine post

http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/article/section/121-mr-wizard/1283-protein-rests-moldy-extract

specifically this paragraph
"Another reason to avoid using moldy malt or malt extract is that certain molds produce mycotoxins (toxins from mold) when they grow. Although many mycotoxins are completely destroyed when heated, some mycotoxins become more toxic when heated, as is the case with certain types of aflotoxin."

So IF it were mold then it could be toxic, which may get better with heating, or worse (isn't that easy). I admit that it refers to malt extract, not what is essentially wort, Which gets back to being able to see if it is furry or not, and what molds look like. For 6/pack of yeast vrs mold that may or may not be toxic? I'll spend $6, if I was pretty sure it was yeast rafts, I'd probably use it.

Thank you.
This is a perfect example where a little bit of not quite understood information plus fear is a dangerous thing, even more dangerous than the mycotoxins you're afraid of.

You're sourcing an article that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Mr wizard is talking about MOLD ON EXTRACT....We're not looking at pictures of moldy extract in the op's photo. We're talking a starter beer here (and one where the surface isn't even moldy at all, as I said, those are perfectly normal yeast rafts as pictured countless times on here.)

And besides even Forrest, the owner of Austin Homebrew Supply who sells a lot of liquid extract a week , has written repeatedly about mold on extract-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austinhomebrew View Post
Because liquid malt extract is very perishable, it is prone to surface mold. Storing in the fridge will slow down the process. Just treat it like a block of cheese. You wouldn't leave cheese on the counter or out in the garage for a length of time. Just like cheese, even if you put it in the fridge it will still eventually grow mold. We sell over 2 tons of liquid malt extract a week, so we send the freshest extract possible.

Forrest
Would he be advocating that if mold on extract were TRULY harmful? Personally I've noticed that mr wizard gets as much wrong as he does right in his collumns, so I take what he writes with a grain of salt, it's mostly opinion with little up to date facts in it. I'd go with Forrest over him in this regard any day.

His business and his reputation is at stake. He wouldn't want to make his customers sick would he? And he probably knows more about his product than 10 mr wizards combined.

A lot of folks are so afraid of this homebrewing thing, and I'm not even talking about new brewer who are scared ****less, but folks "out there" who think you can go blind from what we're doing. If you're going to post something like the mycotoxic BS, you really need to understand what the heck your talking about. Every time we have an "is my beer infected?" thread you have 100 or more frightened noobs on here just glomming onto the thread. If you put something out there and you don't quite understand it, then you're just creating un needed panic.

That's why a lot of us have done a lot of digging to counter the "i read somewhere" misinformation that get tossed out there, like this.

You have to realize, with the long and twisted history of this hobby being relegalized, FORTY YEARS after prohibition was repealed, we would not be allowed to do this, if it were not 100% safe. If there were one hint of danger from this then we would not be allowed to do this, like with making moonshine for example.

You have to understand Nothing that can harm us can exist in our beer. Beer was a SAFE alternative to drinking water. It wasn't "sorta safe," because of the boiling, because of the change in PH and because of the hops, IT IS SAFER THAN WATER.
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Old 07-01-2011, 02:33 AM   #17
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Here's some yeast raft pics....Notice the resemblance????











This is yeast rafts on a yeast starter, just like the OP has.

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Old 07-01-2011, 02:57 AM   #18
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Daaaaamn Revvy, you're doin' some work tonight!

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Old 07-01-2011, 12:10 PM   #19
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he's on a roll

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Old 07-01-2011, 12:51 PM   #20
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I think Revvy just laid the smack down...

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