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Old 03-15-2014, 04:08 PM   #21
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Guys, this isn't about quick hooch. OP has stated that his concern is speed of fermentation relative to other things going on. What's confusing is what "other things" OP believes are going on, why they're going on, and what effect they have on the end product. That's what needs clarification. It sounds like he got bad brewing advice, or misinterpreted some technical text, but we need to ask him that.

I don't think it will help to have 20 more "You're impatient! Buy beer at the store, prison hooch drinker!" posts.

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Old 03-16-2014, 11:19 AM   #22
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Hi Guys. GuidTuborg is correct. I am trying to increase yeast fermentation relative to other things that are going on. Sorry that I did not explain myself, I didn't want to subject everyone to a long post. I'm not a troll either, do people even troll brewing forums?

Anyway, thanks for all the help from everyone so far. I am not trying to solve any problems like sanitation or off flavors, etc. I brew quite a bit and have about 1,000 bottles of home made wine in my wine cellar. I am working on a recipe/method that concentrates on yeast fermentation without bacterial action (and other actions such as enzymes). Grains contain wild yeast, wild bacteria, and its own enzymes from the farmers field. I want to limit their involvement. I want to make a brew where nothing else has occurred except for the yeast. Sure I can toss my ingredients in a carboy and have good wine/beer in a month but I want to create something different.

The question is how to do this? The main thing I want to do is to stop acid production. I know that yeast will stick some in, but not as much as the wild lacto bacteria. I can't cook the fermentable to kill everything because it is changing the fermentables. I can't adjust the acid after the fact because the bacteria are also acting on the fermentables and putting out other things (as well as consuming it). As I also mentioned I can't buffer beforehand because it is having an effect on the fermentables in a bad way. I received a private message to try different yeast so I am going to try that and hopefully find one that is more faster than the others. K1-1116 is advertised as vigorous.

Does anyone know if bacteria grow in the exact same relation to yeast based on temperature. For instance if yeast and bacteria double every hour at say 80 degrees, does lowering the temperture change this. So maybe at 59 degrees the yeast doubles every 4 hours but the bacteria doubles every 8 hours. Thus I would have faster yeast fermentation compared to bacterial action.

Sam

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Old 03-16-2014, 03:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shopkins1994 View Post
Hi Guys. GuidTuborg is correct. I am trying to increase yeast fermentation relative to other things that are going on. Sorry that I did not explain myself, I didn't want to subject everyone to a long post. I'm not a troll either, do people even troll brewing forums?
Sorry for 2nd guessing you, but I don't think anything is free from trolling anymore

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Grains contain wild yeast, wild bacteria, and its own enzymes from the farmers field. I want to limit their involvement.
True, grains have all sorts of spore on them, but that is one reason we boil. That will kill all of the bugs. If you are not allowing unwanted bugs to enter after you have boiled then you have only the yeast that you put in.

The enzymes in the grain are responsible for turning the starches to sugars, without them we wouldn't be able to do all grain brewing. I'm confused on what you think enzymes are doing that is bad, unless you are putting Beno in your fermentor, the enzymes are all denatured by the boil too.

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The question is how to do this? The main thing I want to do is to stop acid production. I know that yeast will stick some in, but not as much as the wild lacto bacteria. I can't cook the fermentable to kill everything because it is changing the fermentables. I can't adjust the acid after the fact because the bacteria are also acting on the fermentables and putting out other things (as well as consuming it). As I also mentioned I can't buffer beforehand because it is having an effect on the fermentables in a bad way. I received a private message to try different yeast so I am going to try that and hopefully find one that is more faster than the others. K1-1116 is advertised as vigorous.
I'm confused on this one too. It sounds like you have been making wine for a while, but I'm wondering about your beer making knowledge. A lot of the things you are concerned about aren't really concerns if you take the right steps and a few precautions. The oxymoron of not wanting enzymes to act on your beer is one reason I thought you might be trolling. I suggest picking up a copy of How To Brew by John Palmer. It's an outstanding book and has a ton of information in it. You can read the online version for free, but the hard copy is much more up to date and an excellent recourse for even advanced brewers.
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Old 03-16-2014, 03:38 PM   #24
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If I understand the fastest way to kick start fermentation is
1- Enough Yeast (activated)
2- Pure Oxygen (like from a welding tank)
This won't gain you alcohol but will get fermentation going quicker and there for shorten fermentation time.

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Old 03-16-2014, 03:41 PM   #25
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This beer was brewed last night and came out of kettle at 7:30pm.
The faster the yeast starts the less chance for infection.
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Old 03-16-2014, 03:46 PM   #26
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OP, can you dumb this down even more for us? Everything you've written so far makes it sound like you just want to bring grains home from the homebrew store, put them directly in a fermenter with room-temperature water, and pitch yeast. In this case you WOULD need to worry about yeast and lactobacillus competing, but this isn't how beer is made.

Maybe you can tell us a little more about your proposed process so we know what advice to give you. Because right now your posts are making it seem like you have no clue how beer is made and in that case it would be really beneficial for you to read a beginner brewing book like some of the above posters have suggested.

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Old 03-16-2014, 11:38 PM   #27
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OP, with good sanitation, effects from bacteria are not noticeable to even a fairly critical palate. Without enzymes, you cannot make beer. Full stop.

Edit: And without the acidity created by the yeast, your beer will never be shelf stable and safe to drink.

Despite your detailed reply, I don't think I'm any closer to knowing why you want to stop bacterial and enzymatic action. What did you read or hear that made you want to do this?

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Old 03-17-2014, 06:07 AM   #28
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1) mash: crushed malted grains and hot water are mixed to make enzymes in the grain break down starch in the grain to sugar. There is lactobacillus and other bacteria on the surface of the grain present. Enzymes need to be active to break down the starch and create sugars for yeast to metabolize.
2) boil: after mashing to create sugar from the starches in the grains the sweet liquid is drained and boiled, generally with hops or other bittering substances, which destroys the enzymes breaking down the starch and kills the bacteria that was present on the grain. This essentially sterilizes the sweet liquid (wort).
3) ferment: yeast is added to the wort and allowed to ferment the liquid and produce alcohol and flavor substances. During this stage rigorous sanitation is practiced to avoid contamination by bacteria unless they are desired.
OP, I think that these concepts are pretty widely understood here, but perhaps they are foreign to you. Perhaps you aren't making yourself clear as well. From what I can pick up from your posts perhaps you are assuming brewing beer is like making wine? Boiling kills the bacteria and destroys the enzymes, so wort/fermenting beer should be basically sterile with only your desired culture of yeast acting on it/fermenting.

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Old 03-17-2014, 10:24 AM   #29
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OP are you part of the raw food movement or something?

Typically beer is brewed, meaning that it is subjected to a boil. I know that in England home brewers often use malt extracts already infused with hops to make beer without boiling themselves, but the product they use was most certainly exposed to at least boiling temps before packaging.

In short, to make beer the wort is boiled. It is an essential element. If you don't want to boil I say stick with wine. Beer is brewed. Beer is brewed. Beer is brewed.

If you want to rock the beer world with a non-boiled beer then you're blazing your own trail here. God's speed my friend.

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