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Old 04-23-2011, 07:10 PM   #91
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Disgusting.





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Old 04-23-2011, 07:55 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfowler1

Lets slow down a minute here.

The fact that pure O2 is a really good/better method for aeration is not up for debate any longer. Why, because I'm the OP and I can say whatever I want. Can we agree it is a pretty good method? I think we can. You think shaking things around is just as good - okay. I know I fell into this trap for a few posts too, but maybe we just need to agree to disagree about the science here. Some people think humans rode around on dinosaurs. Who am I to say they didn't? After all, I haven't conducted any experiments to prove my point.

Now that that is out of the way.

First of all, no, I will not be conducting any sort of experiments for comparing a beer with O2 to a beer without O2. I've got a little hunch the beer with the O2 will be better (because I made 24 batches without, and 1 batch with, and the "with" wins - coincidence?). And since I only get to brew about once a month, I am not going to start undercutting my beer quality for the sake of "experiment" to appease some doubting Tom. Buy a kit and see for yourself, or don't. It is not effecting me.

Second, experimentation about dissolved oxygen concentrations has already been done. How can you possibly say you read the entire thread and didn't see anything concrete to that effect? As I am typing this, I am on my couch, and kind of shrugging in disbelief. Even I feel confused. Personally, I quoted and referenced experiments done by Wyeast and White Labs. I offered page numbers and links. But whatever, if that is not enough for you - fine. It is not effecting me.
Well I guess I didn't realize that the opinion of the original poster was gospel. You're kind of proving my point here. All you guys have to support the use of O2 aeration is anecdotal evidence. You cite a wyeast page that says that you can achieve higher concentrations of O2 with a tank, and maybe that's true but where's the proof? It's a nice couple of paragraphs on a website with no experimental evidence to back it up. Even if you can achieve >10 ppm of dissolved O2 (and I think you can), you have a supersaturated solution (at least at atmospheric pressure), so how long will those concentrations be maintained?

No one here seems to have done any experiments. I'm talking about the kind of controlled experiment with serial O2 measurements using multiple methods of wort aeration on a split batch of wort. I purchased most of the necessary equipment to do this experiment today and am planning to do this experiment in the next few weeks. I'll probably start out with water much like the article I referenced. I'll do one control with no aeration, one with swishing/shaking in a plastic bucket, one with wort wizard style aeration (what I currently use), one with room air/aquarium pump, and one with an O2 tank. Then we'll continue to measure the O2 concentration over time in order to see how much of the O2 comes out of solution and how quickly.

Then, I plan to do the same thing with a split batch of wort, followed by blind taste testing.

I don't think is kind of experiment has been done, but if it has please let me know.


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Old 04-23-2011, 07:59 PM   #93
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Well.....you convinced me, I'm on board with oxygen. Not just because of the purty glass of stout (although it's very nice), and not because of the science (although I understand it well enough, and think it's all sound). I'm going to do it because I entered this pastime at the tender age of 63, and was just never up to the whole "shake, baby, shake" technique. So- for three years, through extract and now AG, I ærate by pouring back & forth from the boil kettle to the fermentation bucket several times, and let it go at that. But even "that" is enough exertion that I guess I've been in the market for something else. I've read about both the oxygen and regular air processes before, but this thread convinced me that the O2 setup is the way to go. Just ordered the kit from Williams, need to remember to stop by Lowe's or Menards and pick up the oxygen cylinder.

What will I do when I get this setup? Oh, pretty much the same as "jfowler1." I'll use the oxygen on the wort, taste the beer and draw my own conclusions. There's not that much scientist in me (I know one, and science is a calling not for everyone- believe me) to do any split-batch comparisons. I'll leave that to the more OCD among our brethren.

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Old 04-23-2011, 08:00 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by emjay

Please read more carefully. The probe measures dissolved oxygen content - as in, concentration, not saturation. It cannot possibly measure "saturation". What they did was determine how much dissolved oxygen there was when it WAS 100% saturated with air, and used that to determine how oxygen levels in their tests compared to that. Had they calibrated that 100% set-point by saturating it with pure oxygen, that 95% would probably be closer to 20%.

Not to be unduly rude, but what good does referencing the hard science do when the failure to understand something even as simple as the difference between concentration and saturation makes you conclude pretty much the exact opposite of what something says?
Maybe you need to look again. I don't own this probe, but most of the probes measure ppm of O2 in solution which can then easily be converted to percent saturation if you know the temperature and atmospheric pressure. If you can achieve say 8 ppm O2 in solution using room air or pure O2, the oxygen concentration is the SAME in both solutions. The saturation is just another way of expressing the oxygen concentration. Hope this helps.
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:47 PM   #95
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No one here seems to have done any experiments.
Unless there is a research grant in it for me, I am more interested in making and drinking beer than in designing and performing a series of experiments to test this hypothesis. Honestly just smacks of effort.
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Old 04-23-2011, 09:00 PM   #96
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No one here seems to have done any experiments. I'm talking about the kind of controlled experiment with serial O2 measurements using multiple methods of wort aeration on a split batch of wort.
White Labs did just this kind of experiment. Yes, it was small scale, but it's the kind of thing you've been asking about. The results, as stated earlier in the thread, can be found in the "Yeast" book by Chris White.
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Old 04-23-2011, 09:20 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Slurm

Unless there is a research grant in it for me, I am more interested in making and drinking beer than in designing and performing a series of experiments to test this hypothesis. Honestly just smacks of effort.
I can totally identify with you here. I'd rather not spend the time, money, and effort either. However, you have to acknowledge without these types of experiments, we'd still be in the dark ages.
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Old 04-23-2011, 09:21 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by GuldTuborg

White Labs did just this kind of experiment. Yes, it was small scale, but it's the kind of thing you've been asking about. The results, as stated earlier in the thread, can be found in the "Yeast" book by Chris White.
Thanks for the info. I don't own the book, so I have to take your word for it. Still, nothing that anyone has posted here has been very convincing.
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Old 04-23-2011, 09:37 PM   #99
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I have to say I'm surprised that this entire thread was started on the basis of the taste of 1 batch of beer.

But it doesn't matter I suppose.

I don't think its debatable that more oxygen gets into the wort with oxygen than it does with room air. And there are sources that say that dissolved oxygen more than that achievable with room air is beneficial to commercial breweries.

And there are many homebrewers who have anecdotal evidence that pure oxygen works for homebrewing. In the case of the OP, his batch turned out better than any before. This result clearly needs to be repeated by the OP to hold any merit but there seem to be many who agree with him.

I am on the fence but I will probably use O2 at some point. I'm not expecting any bigger change than other tweaks that I've made. But who knows?

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Old 04-23-2011, 09:43 PM   #100
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Thanks for the info. I don't own the book, so I have to take your word for it. Still, nothing that anyone has posted here has been very convincing.
I don't have the book in front of me, but I do remember some of the details. They (the authors and the people at White Labs) seemed to do a thorough job of controlling extraneous variables, so I'm fairly well convinced their results should hold up to larger trials. To what degree, though, is always the question.

There were two experiments I remember off the top of my head. One was with a low gravity wort, around 1.050 maybe, split with (rough) oxygenation levels of 2, 8, 10, and 15ppm. They all finished with the same FG, but the 10 and 15ppm worts achieved that gravity a full 48 hours faster than the 2ppm, and nearly as much faster than the 8ppm. Then they used a higher gravity wort, maybe 1.086 I'm wanting to say. They used the same oxygenation levels and compared gravity over time. The 10 and 15ppm worts finished a full 4 points lower than the other two, and did so faster.

I think what they were able to show is the yeast health and performance will increase with oxygenation levels at 10ppm and above. They did state each strain will be different in its oxygen requirements, and that some need 15ppm or more to achieve the same results. I would guess low oxygen requirement strains would need less, but they did not state what levels are typically suitable. They did not look at any other effects (ester, phenol, diacetyl, higher alcohol levels, etc.) in the finished product, nor did they evaluate for taste differences. Those would have been expensive and extremely subjective, respectively.

How well your yeast perform over time may or may not be much of a concern for you. Attenuation can be controlled by other means, though perhaps not with the same results. Just because your beer stops at a certain point on your scale doesn't mean all other variables (types of sugar left over, other compounds put off and metabolized, or not, etc.) will remain the same. I think they made a good case that yeast perform differently with differing levels of oxygenation. Taste is ultimately the true test, so the only way to figure out if adding pure O2 makes a difference for you is to try it.


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