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Dave37 · 01-12-2013, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastoak

what book is this in? it seems to be saying that diacetyl comes from fermenting on the break material which is not true at all. maybe i'm misunderstanding.

It's in brewing classic styles. By Palmer and jamil he doesn't say that diacetyl is caused by the break he says it can come from higher fermentation temps and changes in them. He basically says that diacetyl can be minimized greatly by keeping the ferm temps low. I attached a pic of the page. Let me know what you think. If my wording confused you I apologize. I wanted to try and keep the length of my post somewhat short and concise.

**Jdaught** · 01-12-2013, 05:20 AM

The book I reference is "New Brewing Lager Beer". Tried keeping things cold enough to keep acetolactate production to a minimum and in turn keep diacetyl down. It didn't work. Don't know what I did wrong but it was horrible. I agree pitching on the trub has nothing to do with diacetyl levels. My understanding was that higher than optimum temps in the first 24-36 hours after pitch promotes acetolactate production which is turned into diacetyl, then lowering the temp doesn't let the yeast reabsorb the diacetyl. The batch I dumped was pitched at 50 and probly rose to 55 and then lowered to about 48 til about a third of attenuation remained. Lowered temp to 40 over a couple days then racked to lagering vessel and dropped to 34 over a few more days. Lagered for 6 weeks and carbed for 2 weeks. Dumped batch shortly after. Not real sure where I went wrong.

Dave37 · 01-12-2013, 05:26 AM

Sorry a out the blurry pic it looks much better on my iPad here is the next page where he talks about the lagering times. It doesn't say diacetyl is caused from the break I just believe it is just one of the steps involved in the process for a better beer?

Dave37 · 01-12-2013, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jdaught

The book I reference is "New Brewing Lager Beer". Tried keeping things cold enough to keep acetolactate production to a minimum and in turn keep diacetyl down. It didn't work. Don't know what I did wrong but it was horrible. I agree pitching on the trub has nothing to do with diacetyl levels. My understanding was that higher than optimum temps in the first 24-36 hours after pitch promotes acetolactate production which is turned into diacetyl, then lowering the temp doesn't let the yeast reabsorb the diacetyl. The batch I dumped was pitched at 50 and probly rose to 55 and then lowered to about 48 til about a third of attenuation remained. Lowered temp to 40 over a couple days then racked to lagering vessel and dropped to 34 over a few more days. Lagered for 6 weeks and carbed for 2 weeks. Dumped batch shortly after. Not real sure where I went wrong.

Could you clarify about lagering times as far as the question I had in my first post? The one week per .008 for OG to 1.000 or one week for difference between OG and expected FG. in my case 1.071-1.018

Dave37 · 01-12-2013, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jdaught

Above 1.000

I tried the keep it cold and avoid the d-rest method on my last batch of pilsner. Turned out to be a horrible butter bomb that I dumped into my garden. I never let it get above 55 and lowered it as stated. Don't know if I messed up somewhere or what but it didn't work for me. Might try it again after some research but for now I'm sticking with the d-rest.

Sorry missed this post completely. Thanks that woul equal to about a 9 week layering period for my hopefully good tasting bock.

**Jdaught** · 01-12-2013, 05:36 AM

1 week for every .008 of OG above 1.000

So your 71/8
8.875
So 9 weeks of lagering according to that.

**eastoak** · 01-12-2013, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave37

It's in brewing classic styles. By Palmer and jamil he doesn't say that diacetyl is caused by the break he says it can come from higher fermentation temps and changes in them. He basically says that diacetyl can be minimized greatly by keeping the ferm temps low. I attached a pic of the page. Let me know what you think. If my wording confused you I apologize. I wanted to try and keep the length of my post somewhat short and concise.

i checked out that section of the book and i do see what you were trying to convey on your post.

shadows69 · 01-15-2013, 04:45 PM

Bottom line always do a diacetyl rest. I do it every time I make a lager, if nothing else think of it as a safety protection.

**eastoak** · 01-15-2013, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadows69

Bottom line always do a diacetyl rest. I do it every time I make a lager, if nothing else think of it as a safety protection.

diacetyl is very detectable so if you don't have it you don't need to do anything to remove it. just pointing this out for someone who is new to lagers that may read this and think it's something they have to do.

***Yooper*** · 01-15-2013, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastoak

diacetyl is very detectable so if you don't have it you don't need to do anything to remove it. just pointing this out for someone who is new to lagers that may read this and think it's something they have to do.

Actually, that's the thing. In low amounts, most people miss diacetyl. It's a "slick" mouthfeel or an oiliness on the teeth or tongue, but without flavor. If you actually taste diacetyl, that means it's loaded.

And it gets worse with time, not better. So a slight oiliness on the tongue after primary may be a huge butter bomb after lagering, when it's too late to fix it.

And some people are genetically unable to taste diacetyl even in large amounts. So tasting for diacetyl isn't really effective, unless you are an expert at tasting it in very small amounts.

Doing a diacetyl rest as a matter of course, whether strictly necessary or not, won't harm the beer a bit and may help. Even for ales, it's recommended.