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Old 04-01-2012, 02:27 AM   #1
Kuhndog
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Default Hobgoblin Clone - Would 1056 work?

I have access to a local brewery yeast and it's 1056 basically. I'm looking to do Orfy's Hobgoblin II recipe with a tweak to get the IBUs up a tad to get it into the ESB range.

Three Questions:

Would 1056 be okay for a Hobgoblin clone? The attenuation is what worries me - it's higher than the recommended 1275 for that one in terms of liquid yeast.

Second - Does anyone know what the IBUs for the original is? Per Orfy's II recipe, it's a little low on the IBUs.

Lastly - What variation in Orfy's Hobgoblin II recipe would get a dark Ruby color (Caramalt 60 - 75 - 80) or does the II recipe already do that. I'm looking at Beersmith and I'm having an issue on verifying it if it's red vs brown. Have people used this recipe and is it dark ruby red?


Oh - has only taken 5 gallon recipes in Beersmith 2 and scaled it to say 150 gal or 300? Did they come out okay?

Thanks!!!



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Old 04-01-2012, 06:01 AM   #2
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1) No.

2) 25ish

3) huh?

Are you planning on brewing a 7-14 barrel batch?



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Old 04-02-2012, 05:10 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Cellarbrau View Post
1) No.

2) 25ish

3) huh?

Are you planning on brewing a 7-14 barrel batch?


What's wrong with 1056? Looking at the stats vs a 1275 - Thames Valley - there isn't that much of a difference between the two in terms of attenuation and flocculation from Wyeast's website.

1056 - American Ale Strain: Flocculation is med-low, attenuation at 73-77%, mild citrus, low fruitiness with mild ester produciton

1275 - Thames Valley Strain: Flocculation is med-low, attenuation is 77%, low fruitiness, low esters, light malt character

What is the difference then?
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:20 PM   #4
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It depends on fermentation temperatures. For something malt driven and balanced like Hobgoblin, I would ferment in the low 60s and rise later to high 60s with WLP023 or Wyeast 1275. If you ferment with this yeast slightly higher from the start (68-73 F) you'll get more honeyed, stone fruit type esters and less of that malty, dry, biscuit character. Check out WLP023 - it attentuates less and is recommended for lower ferm temps.

With WLP001 & Wyeast 1056, I notice more crisp citrus and clean hop showcase when fermented in the low 60s. And when fermented higher, I get more of those tropical fruit and sweet fruity esters overall... at least in my IPAs.

I have no idea on the malt selection for Hobgoblin, but to get that amazing red color in my pale beers, I really like 6-8% Weyermann CaraAroma. Or perhaps a very low proportion of Black malt or Special B woven into a very dry, clean malt driven recipe with British Crystal, Chocolate Malt, Fawcett Maris Otter, etc. ~ Hops taste like a combo of Styrians, EKG, and Fuggles.

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Old 04-04-2012, 03:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
I have no idea on the malt selection for Hobgoblin, but to get that amazing red color in my pale beers, I really like 6-8% Weyermann CaraAroma. Or perhaps a very low proportion of Black malt or Special B woven into a very dry, clean malt driven recipe with British Crystal, Chocolate Malt, Fawcett Maris Otter, etc. ~ Hops taste like a combo of Styrians, EKG, and Fuggles.
The grain bill for the clone is (per Orfy's Hobgobling II):

Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) - 88.9%
Caramel/Crystal Malt (60L - 60 SRM) - 4.6%
Cara-pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) - 3.7%
Chocolate Malt (450 SRM) - 2.8%

Total SRM is 17.2 and they used Nottingham.
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:38 PM   #6
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Here's the recipe and specs from one of the Line or Wheeler British clone brewing books. It's suposed to be based on the actual recipe used by the brewery:

Hobgoblin - Wychwood Brewery

25 litre batch
OG 1053
ABV 5.5%
41 units of colour (that's EBC "units" - To convert EBC to SRM: Multiple EBC by .375 and add .46 ...so that's about 15 - 16 SRM)


28 EBU

MARIS OTTER PALE MALT 5550 gms
BLACK MALT 116 gms

HOPS boil time 90 minutes

PROGRESS 53 gms

Add 10gms Styrian Goldings last 15 minutes

Yeast: White Labs WLP023 or Wyeast 1275 Thames valley.

1056 will work - as in it will ferment the beer and produce a drinkable product, but you'll miss out on all of the characteristic apple, clover honey and pear flavors that make British ale taste "British". Personally I'd use the WLP023 if I wanted to make a good approximation of the original.

Edited to add: Based on a careful study of the last edition of the Real Ale Almanac and other reputable British sources, it's pretty obvious to me that we Americans come up with vastly more complex grain bills than the actual grain bills used by the actual British brewers when attempting to clone British ales. It's a curious thing....the Brits get so much out of high quality british malt, a little bit of color malts, two additions of the ususal British hops, long boils - 90min or more - and distinct yeast strains while we spend so much time and effort blending a complex array of different malts and hops trying to replicate their beers.

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Old 04-04-2012, 04:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAverage View Post
Here's the recipe and specs from one of the Line or Wheeler British clone brewing books. It's suposed to be based on the actual recipe used by the brewery:

Hobgoblin - Wychwood Brewery

MARIS OTTER PALE MALT 5550 gms
BLACK MALT 116 gms

Edited to add: Based on a careful study of the last edition of the Real Ale Almanac and other reputable British sources, it's pretty obvious to me that we Americans come up with vastly more complex grain bills than the actual grain bills used by the actual British brewers when attempting to clone British ales. It's a curious thing....the Brits get so much out of high quality british malt, a little bit of color malts, two additions of the ususal British hops, long boils - 90min or more - and distinct yeast strains while we spend so much time and effort blending a complex array of different malts and hops trying to replicate their beers.
That's very interesting to see what that recipe has in terms of grains and the point of quality british malt. What's interesting is that all reviewers of the beer talk about a caramel/toffee flavor from the malt...and I didn't know Maris Otter Pale Malt could do that on it's own. I thought they would need to have a crystal malt (UK) or something to give that flavor to the beer because the black malt won't do that. That and the fact that the brewery's website actually lists the malts used - Pale, Crystal, Chocolate. Of course, we'll never know the ratios of those malts used nor the amounts of hops - fuggles and styrian goldings used.

If anything, what might be the true recipe is using medium or dary english crystal malt instead of cara-pils or caramel 60 malt but it can't be as simple as pale and black though...again pointing to the Wychwood website. I'm not trying to be mean or anything - I was just asking about yeasts in particular and then a member asked about the grain bill I was using. To be honest, as long as I can get 85-90% on this in terms of taste...I'll be happy.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuhndog View Post
I'm not trying to be mean or anything - I was just asking about yeasts in particular and then a member asked about the grain bill I was using. To be honest, as long as I can get 85-90% on this in terms of taste...I'll be happy.
Actually, you were curious how to achieve the ruby color. That color is gotten from the variety/amount of specific grains in the recipe. I never asked you about the grain you were using either; I just told you how to get that ruby color. Any of the crystal malts you referenced, whether in combination with other malts like chocolate, black, etc. could yield a ruby color depending on the amounts of those malts used in the recipe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuhndog View Post
caramel/toffee flavor from the malt...and I didn't know Maris Otter Pale Malt could do that on it's own.
MO doesn't provide this on its own. English yeast plays a big role, as does British Crystal, other malts, residual sweetness, perceived dryness, OG/FG.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:29 PM   #9
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There was a CYBI show where they interviewed the head brewer and got the exact recipe. Quite interesting.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you-brew-recipe-wychwood-hobgoblin-273932/

Also, I would never use 1056 in a clone of this beer (or almost any british beer, really). So much of the characteristic "british" flavors come from the yeasts they use. 1056 is great for most american styles because it's so clean, but you really need a british yeast to get a british taste. The CYBI episode recommended WLP023, but you could probably get close with lots of other options.

I love Orfy's recipe, but I usually swap out the Notty for something else.

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Old 04-04-2012, 07:00 PM   #10
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And this is where the fun lies....trying to figure out which of the "real" recipes is the "real" one......

how to account for the caramel/toffee flavor ? ? A few thoughts:

1) It seems to me that a bit of medium or dark crystal in the grain bill would be appropriate - it is pretty standard for British ales, after all. I was surprised when the supposed "real" recipe I posted above didn't have any

2) It's entirely possible that the brewer used/uses some dark invert sugar. Apparently some brewers were/are reluctant to admit to this. Others aren't shy about it at all.

3) The recipe might have changed. Wheeler and Line were gathering their info back in the 1970's, 80's and early 90's and the Hobgoblin recipe might have changed since then.

4) Long boil times - 120 min + - used to be standard practice and might well have contributed a hint of caramel flavor. If they've moved to shorter boil times, they might have decided to add a bit of crystal to get a similar flavor.

5) the yeast will make a difference (as noted above)

..but this is all speculation. The only way to be sure is to brew a batch using a reasonable recipe and the do a side by side comparison with the real thing and adjust as necessary.



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