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Old 09-07-2012, 01:56 PM   #1
hinke
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Default Higher than expected OG...pitch more yeast?

Hi,

I brewed a Saison yesterday and my target OG was 1.060 (Grain bill was 12.2# for a 6 gallon batch + 1 pound of table suggar), but I ended up at 1.080. I am not sure how that happened actually. I was .5 gallon off at the end, but I would not think that would equal a 20 point jump.

I have pitched 2 Wyeast 3724 packs already. There is no visible activity right now (It's only been 7 hours since pitch).

Can I just pitch a Nottingham dry yeast instead of purchasing more Saison yeast?

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Old 09-07-2012, 02:11 PM   #2
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Even with 2 packs of yeast you under pitched a beer that big. Assuming fresh yeast you should have needed about 300B cells or a 2.5L starter. BTW, you should always make a starter with liquid yeast and use: http://www.yeastcalc.com for making starter calculations.

That being said, 7 days is not nearly enough time to start worrying about activity. Some beers will require up to 72 hours for visible signs of fermentation so just be patient. The first phase of fermentation is the growth phase (lag time) This duration of time depends upon pitch rate, temperature, aeration and presence of adequate O2. If any of these items is lacking or deficient then lag time is greater.

In addition, air lock activity does not mean anything really other than gas is escaping. First the headspace needs to fill beyond capacity and then begin to vent. Buckets are notorious for leaky seals as well. Gravity readings are the only true way to determine what is happening.

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Old 09-07-2012, 02:13 PM   #3
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I think for a six (6) Gallon Batch two packs should be fine but if after 24 hours you see nothing toss in the Nottingham.

To confirm... there are some yeast pitching calculators out there and I would bet they would say you pitched fine but double check and if you needed more toss in in NOW.

Sorry I don't understand these damn things as (I think) they assume you are making a starter.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

http://fermentationriot.com/yeastpitchratecalc.html

DPB

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Old 09-07-2012, 02:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPBISME View Post
I think for a six (6) Gallon Batch two packs should be fine but if after 24 hours you see nothing toss in the Nottingham.

To confirm... there are some yeast pitching calculators out there and I would bet they would say you pitched fine but double check and if you needed more toss in in NOW.

Sorry I don't understand these damn things as (I think) they assume you are making a starter.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

http://fermentationriot.com/yeastpitchratecalc.html

DPB
The numbers I stated in my post came from yeastcalc, verifying the underpitch. They are quite easy to use by simply plugging in the style of beer, lager or ale, adding manufacture date of yeast, OG of the beer in question and then the estimated required cell count needed. Mr. Malty will give you a total starter size required, yeastcalc will allow you to calculate stepped starters to achieve proper pitch rate.

Smack pack and vials are generally agreed upon to be adeq
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPBISME View Post
I think for a six (6) Gallon Batch two packs should be fine but if after 24 hours you see nothing toss in the Nottingham.

To confirm... there are some yeast pitching calculators out there and I would bet they would say you pitched fine but double check and if you needed more toss in in NOW.

Sorry I don't understand these damn things as (I think) they assume you are making a starter.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

http://fermentationriot.com/yeastpitchratecalc.html

DPB
The numbers I stated in my post came from yeastcalc, verifying the underpitch. They are quite easy to use by simply plugging in the style of beer, lager or ale, adding manufacture date of yeast, OG of the beer in question and then the estimated required cell count needed. Mr. Malty will give you a total starter size required, yeastcalc will allow you to calculate stepped starters to achieve proper pitch rate.

Smack pack and vials are generally agreed upon to be adequate for beers around 1.028 even though the packs themselves state 1.060. The fact is that by the time the consumer actually is ready to use the pack there are no longer 100B cells present.

None of this is meant to say you cannot just use a pack or two to pitch and still not get beer. It is simply meant to explain the importance of getting proper pitch rate to ensure proper, controlled fermentation.
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:32 PM   #6
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I know everything about the yeast calculator. At 1.060 I should have used 2.5 packs. Since this is a Saison, I wanted to stress the yeast little bit, so I only bought 2 packs. However, the OG was completely off, which is hard to plan for....

There was no time for a starter. I don't even make a starter for my Heff, and it turns out fantastic.

I was not worried about the activity, I just put that in there to let you guys know that it had not moved to the fermentation phase yet. I thought maybe it would be a good idea to just throw in the dry yeast at this phase. I think the Saison yeast will still dominate, since the Nottingham is a pretty clean yeast.

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Old 09-07-2012, 05:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duboman View Post
The numbers I stated in my post came from yeastcalc, verifying the underpitch. They are quite easy to use by simply plugging in the style of beer, lager or ale, adding manufacture date of yeast, OG of the beer in question and then the estimated required cell count needed. Mr. Malty will give you a total starter size required, yeastcalc will allow you to calculate stepped starters to achieve proper pitch rate.

Smack pack and vials are generally agreed upon to be adequate for beers around 1.028 even though the packs themselves state 1.060. The fact is that by the time the consumer actually is ready to use the pack there are no longer 100B cells present.

None of this is meant to say you cannot just use a pack or two to pitch and still not get beer. It is simply meant to explain the importance of getting proper pitch rate to ensure proper, controlled fermentation.
I don't thin I have ever brewed a beer will a OG as low as 1.028. Not even my Kolschs and English Milds come in that low.

I assume you are talking about OG since as far as I know yeast counts and calculations are based on OG and not FG. But I will go read my yeast primer again...

Then according to what you are saying I have been "underpitching" for years.

I assumed a single pack was good for a 5 gallon batch of your typiclal English or American Ales and frequeuntly I toss in an extra dry Yeast (Nottingham) as a backup for my large batches... I figured two Tubes or Packs of the yeast true to the style should take hold and the Nottinghan is just there as "backup"...

Happy Friday,

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Old 09-07-2012, 06:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPBISME

I don't thin I have ever brewed a beer will a OG as low as 1.028. Not even my Kolschs and English Milds come in that low.

I assume you are talking about OG since as far as I know yeast counts and calculations are based on OG and not FG. But I will go read my yeast primer again...

Then according to what you are saying I have been "underpitching" for years.

I assumed a single pack was good for a 5 gallon batch of your typiclal English or American Ales and frequeuntly I toss in an extra dry Yeast (Nottingham) as a backup for my large batches... I figured two Tubes or Packs of the yeast true to the style should take hold and the Nottinghan is just there as "backup"...

Happy Friday,

DPB
I am speaking of OG and yes, you probably have been under pitching all this time which is why the two sites mentioned should be used. In most cases when you enter the info you will see viability is less than 100% so the cell count is down.

When using liquid yeast strains it is highly recommended making a starter to grow the yeast to proper pitching rate.

There are many threads here discussing this and I also highly recommend the book "Yeast" by Jamil Z and Chris White, from White labs. Yeast is one of the most overlooked ingredients in brewing and it plays a predominant role in the production of beer. I reference this book many times and find it to be a must on the shelves of a brewer.
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:13 PM   #9
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But the vial/pack is not the same as a washed yeast from a fermented batch. Washed yeast does not last long...I think the recommended re-use is within 2 weeks because the yeast cells die off at a fast rate.

Basically what you are saying is that the manufacturer is lying by saying you can pitch one vial in a 1.050 wort? I say, that is false advertisement.

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Old 09-07-2012, 07:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hinke
But the vial/pack is not the same as a washed yeast from a fermented batch. Washed yeast does not last long...I think the recommended re-use is within 2 weeks because the yeast cells die off at a fast rate.

Basically what you are saying is that the manufacturer is lying by saying you can pitch one vial in a 1.050 wort? I say, that is false advertisement.
Sorry, I am not suggesting they are lying. Under optimal conditions of fresh yeast you can pitch one vial/pack and ferment beer. Just because the pitch rate may not be perfect doesn't mean you won't make beer but it's impossible for a manufacturer to predetermine the gravity of every individual beer so they have create what they consider to be an adequate packaging standard. It is then up to the consumer to adjust for purpose.
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