Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Winners Re-Re-Re-Re-Drawn - 24 hours to Claim!

Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Fermentation & Yeast > First lager: pitching rate seems insane?!
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-23-2011, 02:49 PM   #21
jcp
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Storrs, CT
Posts: 31
Liked 6 Times on 5 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Begin2Brew View Post
Check out this link on a pitching rate experiment, specifically about stepping up starters.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yea...logist-284819/
Now, to be clear, I think Mr. Drew is being a bit too aggressive in his anti-pitching-rate screed (ironically making him a very dogmatically anti-dogma), but I'd like to contribute my skepticism, here.

That link, above, regarding the under-, over-, and properly-pitched yeast counts struck me as funny, in an ironic way:

Quote:
"i picked out the overpitch brew but mixed up the under and the control. overpitch was very thin, under was bubblegummy and the control was more fruity. i was just glad to get one haha."
All that work and experimentation, and the average joe (maybe not even so average, since MrManifesto seems pretty damn smart, to me) felt he was lucky to be able to properly identify even one of the beers.

My point is that, while many of us automatically accept what we've heard here as The Truth, maybe there's something to what Drew is saying. Maybe it's more in the spirit of Big Daddy Papazian? Pitch some yeast, sit back, and chill out.

Will you be able to graduate to Master Brewer levels, this way? Maybe not. But if what you want is beer, then you'll probably get it.

I think Drew's point is a necessary counter-weight to the knee-jerk "Mr. Malty says" response. I would have said it a little differently, but I think it's still worth saying: Not many of us can afford to pitch 9 packets of yeast, and not all of us want to wait for three days while we step up a starter -- that's okay, you can still brew good beer without it."

But do I want to be the one complaining about stuck fermentations? Nope, so I'm definitely pitching a starter. But if Mr. Malty suggests I need 2 liters of yeast slurry, I'm going to quietly close the browser and ignore it.
__________________
jcp is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-23-2011, 04:08 PM   #22
slakwhere
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 755
Liked 20 Times on 19 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Begin2Brew View Post
Check out this link on a pitching rate experiment, specifically about stepping up starters.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yea...logist-284819/
that thread was super interesting!

i have a 2L starter spinning in the kitchen, should be ready to party for saturday
__________________
slakwhere is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-23-2011, 04:33 PM   #23
osagedr
Recovering from Sobriety
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
osagedr's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 2,480
Liked 96 Times on 80 Posts
Likes Given: 26

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewBrewTheGreat View Post
Hey captain know it all.... I know you and your blogging consensus have it all figured out and all... However...

I know enough about yeast to know (and have been instructed by people with PHD's on the subject) that even the smartest people on the subject (yeast and fermentation) admit we only have reached the tip of iceberg when it comes to knowledge on yeast and fermentation. There are unlimited factors.... Pitch rate is only one.

What is thought now--will be different in the future. Brewer's are not yeast farmers or biologists--we make beer. Stressing yeast can even be desirable. When it comes to homebrewing, the vials and smack packs, pitched active, after a starter, is sufficient for most any beer. Including a simple pilsner.

The best tools you have are your taste buds and observations.

For example: Two weeks ago I brewed, by coincidence, I brewed 12 gallons of pilsner--one of several batches this year. I bought a smack pack, made a starter the night before, and pitched it the next evening. During the afternoon I slowly cooled it to ferment temperature before pitching.

The beer just finished out--spot on final gravity. Tastes absolutely great. They all have come out great this year. And they all begin fermentation within 24 hours.

In your world--the "mr. malty world"--the "correct" amount of yeast I should pitch is 8.4 vials (if the yeast was manufactured on the brew date!!!) with out a starter or three with a starter (of 12 litres!!!).



This again, from practical experience and observation, is completely not necessary. If makes you feel better, spend the time and money on "correct" pitch rates.

Personally, I just pitch an amount that is adequate and save the time and money. All the mythical off flavors and horrendous results from not staying true to "Mr. Malty's" commandments set in stone--have never manifested.

Anecdotaly, I am sure there are plenty of homebrewers, on this forum no doubt, who routinely don't pitch the "correct" amount of yeast--and have great results as well.

That is certainly not bad advice.... it is just practical advice.

ps. the dry lager yeast is good advice. simplicity. although none are my favorite for taste.
You make great beer underpitching, good for you. I'm sure you have a big pile of NHC medals that prove every brewer who pitches at the recommended rate is wrong and you are right. It's probably why your book on fermentation is such a big seller. Problem is some newbie reads your ridiculous drivel, pitches a single smack pack into a 1.055 extract pilsner at 46 degrees and gets stuck. "But...some anonymous attention-seeking contrarian douche on HBT told me I only needed to pitch 100,000 cells/ml/degree Plato! Why did I get an Orville Redenbacher special with a 1.025 FG?"
__________________

2012 Canadian Brewer of the Year
2013 Canadian Brewer of the Year

@evilgoatbrewing

osagedr is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-23-2011, 04:36 PM   #24
onthekeg
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,788
Liked 75 Times on 60 Posts
Likes Given: 15

Default

Since I no chill, I would dump your yeast pack into your fermenter pail with 1 gallon of cooled wort once you are done brewing. The next day add another gallon, within 24 hours you will be able to add the rest of the wort and it will ferment at high krausen at all times.
I don't even bother with the traditional stir plate and flask method anymore.

__________________
onthekeg is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-23-2011, 04:48 PM   #25
Malticulous
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: St. George Utah
Posts: 4,137
Liked 56 Times on 47 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

There is never a need to pitch more the 20 million cells per ml, but if you use the simple formula form Fix that Mr. Malty uses it's easy to exceed that. There are a lot of things that go into finding the correct pitch rate and it varies form strain to strain. Pitching about 400 billion in to 20L is going to allow all the cells to bud once. It is common practice to allow the cell population to grow to 3-5 times the pitched yeast count. The industry standard pitch rates for lager is .8-1.25 million x degree plato per milliliter for lagers. Fix's numbers are higher than everyone else, even Narziss.

__________________
Malticulous is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-23-2011, 04:55 PM   #26
DrewBrewTheGreat
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 177
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegerm View Post
you're advocating poor brewing practices. that's not why we come to this board.
No. I am advocating practical and cost effective brewing practices. You can purchase 8 vials of yeast at $6-$8 each or make a batch of beer before you make a batch of beer--when making massive starters--but it is not necessary.

You probably buy high test gasoline too... But your car engine will run perfectly fine on the cheap stuff.

I have worked in this industry in the past--including a homebrew shop when I was younger... Anytime I wanted to get an extra $20 or $100 dollars out of customer--I would say, "it will make better beer." It was a total canard and just plainly a sales pitch. I knew perfectly well, some of the best beer ever made, is done so as cheaply as possible.

What I am advocating is nothing more than what most homebrewers do anyway. From years of experience selling products. And guess what--> it works. And it saves time and money.

Factors (such as pitch rates) that are important to commercial operations--simply are not all that important to small homebrew batches. Especially, when you are just tossing the yeast afterwards--which, by far, most homebrewers do.

You can easily get away with pitching smaller active amounts of yeast than "mr malty," apparently the god of homebrew pitch rates, recommends.

This is not poor brewing process, nor does pitching at "mr. malties" rates create better beer.

My advise is practical and cost effective. Don't like it--don't take it.... But for those new to the hobby--> don't listen to the blowhards telling you to spend a fortune on yeast--> in the name of "better beer." Like I said before, that is simply a marketing ploy to get customers to rationalize separating themselves from their money.

More likely with new brewers--> you will infect your beer by not being sanitary stepping up starters 20 times. I have seen it many times working at a homebrew shop.

By the way, what is "better beer" anyway? That justification is thrown around on this forum pretty liberally. Again, usually when someone spends a lot of needless effort or money into a batch of beer. "Better beer" is a completely subjective phrase and has nothing to with "science."

Not saying don't spend all the time and money you want in this hobby-->that makes it fun.... And padded my pockets when I was younger.

But don't make outrageous claims that your beer is "better" because you pitched more yeast than someone else.
__________________
DrewBrewTheGreat is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-23-2011, 05:11 PM   #27
samc
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 5,420
Liked 55 Times on 52 Posts
Likes Given: 29

Default

I've never made a good Lager when underpitching. Mr. Malty may give you rates that are overpitched in certain circumstances, but in general I've found the information gives me a fast and quality ferment.

Best bet for someone starting out is to consider getting or building a stir plate and making more reasonable sized starters. It will pay for itself in short order.

As to your padding your pockets when you were younger, it makes you sound Newtish (if that's a word).

__________________
samc is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-23-2011, 06:07 PM   #28
DrewBrewTheGreat
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 177
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Quote:
I've never made a good Lager when underpitching.
you are screwing something else up then....

Quote:
making more reasonable sized starters
so you admit you don't follow Mr. Malty exactly each time?
__________________
DrewBrewTheGreat is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-23-2011, 06:08 PM   #29
Sulli
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 404
Liked 34 Times on 18 Posts
Likes Given: 11

Default

'Scribed



__________________
Sulli is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-23-2011, 06:16 PM   #30
DrewBrewTheGreat
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 177
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Here is my "underpitched" pilsner.... One smack pack and pint sized starter the night before pitching.... in a twelve gallon batch..

yup that yeast just could not handle it.... And it tastes so horrible.... I think dump it... hahahahahahahahaha.

This yeast replicated and more than compensated to fully ferment the batch. I saved money and time. I have very good beer. Sorry mr. malty and the blow hards.

__________________
DrewBrewTheGreat is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pitching rate for 10gal Lager enohcs Fermentation & Yeast 2 09-04-2011 06:02 PM
Windsor pitching rate Stellrbrewr Fermentation & Yeast 13 06-08-2011 07:14 PM
lager pitching rate Begin2Brew Fermentation & Yeast 5 03-09-2011 02:24 PM
Pitching Rate Question dennyb Fermentation & Yeast 4 03-12-2010 03:48 PM
pitching rate question baer19d Fermentation & Yeast 6 11-23-2009 09:14 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS