Fermenting Ale and Lager yeasts together

Just out of crazy curiosity, would it be possible to brew a beer with an ale yeast and lager yeast at some kind of neutral temperature (55)

Logic tells me that it might work (top and bottom fermenting co-existing), but I was wondering if there was some kind of science behind it like the yeasts would fight each other in some epic battle and you'd end up the remains of valley forge in the end result (beer?).

Just curious. ipe:

Having multiple strains of yeast going in beer at the same time, even two ale yeasts, isn't unheard of. I've heard of it working very well for some people, but I don't have any personal experience with it.

Relevant to the discussion, i think --

From White labs:
WLP080 ("cream ale blend")

This is a blend of ale and lager yeast strains. The strains work together to create a clean, crisp, light American lager style ale. A pleasing estery aroma may be perceived from the ale yeast contribution. Hop flavors and bitterness are slightly subdued. Slight sulfur will be produced during fermentation, from the lager yeast.

Attenuation75-80%

FlocculationMedium

Optimum Ferment Temp.65-70°F

Alcohol Tolerance: Medim-High
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Random thoughts: I would think lager yeast would out compete any ale yeast in the mid to high 50s. I would also think that lager yeasts would contribute some rather funky flavors in the high 60s. Maybe the only way to get esters from ale and lager crispness would be to ferment two beers separately and combine them.

progmac said:

Relevant to the discussion, i think --

From White labs:
WLP080 ("cream ale blend")

This is a blend of ale and lager yeast strains. The strains work together to create a clean, crisp, light American lager style ale. A pleasing estery aroma may be perceived from the ale yeast contribution. Hop flavors and bitterness are slightly subdued. Slight sulfur will be produced during fermentation, from the lager yeast.

Attenuation75-80%

FlocculationMedium

Optimum Ferment Temp.65-70°F

Alcohol Tolerance: Medim-High
-------------------------
Random thoughts: I would think lager yeast would out compete any ale yeast in the mid to high 50s. I would also think that lager yeasts would contribute some rather funky flavors in the high 60s. Maybe the only way to get esters from ale and lager crispness would be to ferment two beers separately and combine them.

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Awesome. hmmm...time to put on the mad scientist hat:rockin:

Cal ale (us-05, wlp001, wy1056) would probably work with a lager yeast, is reported to ferment ok in the upper lager range. I did a stout and got it too cold in mid 50's and it worked.

Ramitt said:

Cal ale (us-05, wlp001, wy1056) would probably work with a lager yeast, is reported to ferment ok in the upper lager range. I did a stout and got it too cold in mid 50's and it worked.

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i've had wyeast 1028 down to about 57 degrees. my concern would be that this or any other ale yeast would work slower than a lager yeast at 57.

i say this because at 57 with most lager yeasts i get a bitchin krausen, but with ale yeast cold i get just a krausenette; a thin layer of yeasty risings, that, while effective, seems limp compared to the lager yeast counterpart. i suspect this is why white labs recommend their hybrid yeast at the higher end -- because maybe this is the only way to get any ale character at all.

Experiment! Let us know the outcome.

My guess is that the lager yeast would dominate the fermentation, but it might be very estery.

bboyeruga said:

Just out of crazy curiosity, would it be possible to brew a beer with an ale yeast and lager yeast at some kind of neutral temperature (55)

Logic tells me that it might work (top and bottom fermenting co-existing), but I was wondering if there was some kind of science behind it like the yeasts would fight each other in some epic battle and you'd end up the remains of valley forge in the end result (beer?).

Just curious. ipe:

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Saisons are brewed with both yeasts or is it Bier de gard???

I read that recently in:
Farmhouse Ales: Culture and Craftsmanship in the Belgian Tradition Paperback
by Phil Markowski

But they do bouth of them in the mid 60s and if your yeast goes it is going to make "BEER". Probably make a good Kolsch that way since you can lager it a bit...

I just would be careful if using pilsner malt (again I think) and lager yeast at high temps as I think you can get a lot of sulfer...

progmac said:

i've had wyeast 1028 down to about 57 degrees. my concern would be that this or any other ale yeast would work slower than a lager yeast at 57.

i say this because at 57 with most lager yeasts i get a bitchin krausen, but with ale yeast cold i get just a krausenette; a thin layer of yeasty risings, that, while effective, seems limp compared to the lager yeast counterpart. i suspect this is why white labs recommend their hybrid yeast at the higher end -- because maybe this is the only way to get any ale character at all.

Click to expand...

That would probably be a problem, I was just trying to think of ale yeasts that wouldn't go to sleep and drop out at lager temps. Would a large pitch of the ale yeast combined with a small pitch of the lager hit a happy compromise perhaps?

Ramitt said:

That would probably be a problem, I was just trying to think of ale yeasts that wouldn't go to sleep and drop out at lager temps. Would a large pitch of the ale yeast combined with a small pitch of the lager hit a happy compromise perhaps?

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seems like a reasonable idea to me. a diacetyl rest might be in order if you try that.

I've mixed ale and lager yeast. Ended up with a brown ale that wasn't quite like an English brown ale... a bit drier. Added seeds of paradise and liked it very much. I used English Ale yeast and Cali Common. Give it a go and middle of the road temp. You'll get a drier version of the Ale. Cheers

I use WLP862 Cry Havoc all the time at ale and lager temps (I think 54-56 for lager on this one) and will frequently run my ale fermentations a bit cold (64-68). This would be a great one to run with a lager strain if you wanted to make sure it would work well. FWIW, you may just want to try this one in the mid 60's and see if it does what you want it to.

My experience with the US-05 (only the dry of this one, I haven't used the WLP001 or the WY-1056) is that it has some nice fruity esters of peach if you ferment it a little low to start, but you have to be careful and raise the temp to ensure it doesn't get to be too much.

Been doing it with a Kolsch/US-05/Brett/American Ale/ Combo and its very forgiving of low ferm temps giving very crisp beers. no off flavors. This is my last rinse and am not hording this yeast again but I recommend doing it. You'll like it.

Optimum temp for San Fran Lager Yeast (WLP801) is 58-65º. Might be a good one to experiment with first since it works closer to ale range.

Ahem...the REAL potential here........

Pitch ale yeast and let it ferment, say 50%

pitch lager yeast and dial it down to 40, where the ale yeast go to sleep, but the lager is still slowly chugging away.

ferment the rest of the way as a lager, including D rest and see what you get.

cheezydemon3 said:

Ahem...the REAL potential here........

Pitch ale yeast and let it ferment, say 50%

pitch lager yeast and dial it down to 40, where the ale yeast go to sleep, but the lager is still slowly chugging away.

ferment the rest of the way as a lager, including D rest and see what you get.

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I do my Octoberfest the opposite direction with my cry havoc yeast. Once I have a moderate lager yeast profile, I raise it up and finish in the ale range. Gives a great, clean profile.

brewski09 said:

I do my Octoberfest the opposite direction with my cry havoc yeast. Once I have a moderate lager yeast profile, I raise it up and finish in the ale range. Gives a great, clean profile.

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Nice!

bboyeruga said:

Just out of crazy curiosity, would it be possible to brew a beer with an ale yeast and lager yeast at some kind of neutral temperature (55)

Logic tells me that it might work (top and bottom fermenting co-existing), but I was wondering if there was some kind of science behind it like the yeasts would fight each other in some epic battle and you'd end up the remains of valley forge in the end result (beer?).

Just curious. ipe:

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Sure it would work. The question is "why?".

Denny said:

Sure it would work. The question is "why?".

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Because he can of course!

Do mad hatter scientists really need a reason why?

I did this once at a 50:50 split and the fermentation was done at lower/lager temperatures. Important to note is that this particular ale yeast did not fully ferment at temps in the low 60s. As a result of the lager temps, 56 dF in this case, there was absolutely no sign that the ale yeast was present. Zero flavor impact with an ale yeast that have a very floral/fruity and distinct ester profile. Looking at the collected yeast under the microscope also indicated no ale yeast growth. The ale yeasts were larger and had a very different flocculation profile.

In my case it was entirely dependent on the yeast's preferred fermentation temperatures.

Recommended would be to do the primary fermentation with the ale yeast and do the secondary or bottle conditioning with a more powdery lager yeast.

Cheers.

Denny's Evil Concoctions said:

Because he can of course!

Do mad hatter scientists really need a reason why?

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If they want to be considered scientists, yes, they do!

dannysk said:

Recommended would be to do the primary fermentation with the ale yeast and do the secondary or bottle conditioning with a more powdery lager yeast.

Cheers.

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My next experiment is to ferment an ale, like Nottingham, cool at about 62 deg, or so. Rack to a secondary and pitch a w34/70 at the same temperature for another 2-3 weeks. My reasoning is this: Nottingham at low temperatures is lower in esters and is really neutral. Lager yeasts produce fruitiness and other bad stuff at ale temperatures, but the only things left behind by the ale yeasts are acetaldehyde (if you rack too soon like me), raffinose, maltotriose, and other polysaccharides, which lager yeasts can consume. It seems like some maturation might continue in the bottle or the keg if you ramp down slow, and that might be nice to taste it over time. Also, you wouldn't need the fridge for fermenting. San Francisco Lager/ California Lager taste different than a traditional lager, but they might be easier. But- originally, this post was about getting the best of both an ale and a lager in flavor.

Currently reading "Yeast" by C. White & J. Zainasheff. It has a section on this subject. Abailable on Kindle. White Labs makes several mixed strains.

brewski09 said:

I do my Octoberfest the opposite direction with my cry havoc yeast. Once I have a moderate lager yeast profile, I raise it up and finish in the ale range. Gives a great, clean profile.

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this is exactly what i am trying to do. thank you for posting this.

5 years later heh.

One reason I've been pondering this is to see if a secondary yeast can finish the job. For example if I do primary ferment with kveik at about 90-95F and get down to ~1.015, but want the beer to finish even drier than that, then among other choices I can (a) add some enzymes to break down the residual sugars and hope the primary yeast is still active enough to finish out, or (b) pitch an active second yeast.

If I do option (b) I can "clean up" with a neutral ale yeast like San Diego Super Yeast, or cool down to lager temps and add active lager yeast much like the Germans do when kräusening. Either way I would need to cool down quite a bit, assuming the primary ferment took place at kveik temps.