Experts please help! Shrimpy Hefe-Weizen

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Ok. Drunk post. Poured at a local event for 1 hour, walked around the other 2 hours, and got emailed results back from the local competition. So I must be crazy. My shrimpy hefe just got 2nd in the German wheat and rye category, and best overall for hefe's. # 1 was a weizen bock. But I still taste sulfur. Am i crazy, or just too sensitive? ... Don't answer that. I don't want to hear I'm crazy. Good night home brew talk. I'm out.
 
Ok. Drunk post. Poured at a local event for 1 hour, walked around the other 2 hours, and got emailed results back from the local competition. So I must be crazy. My shrimpy hefe just got 2nd in the German wheat and rye category, and best overall for hefe's. # 1 was a weizen bock. But I still taste sulfur. Am i crazy, or just too sensitive? ... Don't answer that. I don't want to hear I'm crazy. Good night home brew talk. I'm out.

My vote is for too sensitive. When you analyze something for too long, you will find flaws. Is it really possible that you don't like the style?
 
I find many examples of the style I do like... I think I'm too much of a perfectionist. But I remind you that my boyfriend tastes the off flavor too, so we are both crazy... :) In the meanwhile I will celebrate & keep working on my perfect hefe.
 
I find many examples of the style I do like... I think I'm too much of a perfectionist. But I remind you that my boyfriend tastes the off flavor too, so we are both crazy... :) In the meanwhile I will celebrate & keep working on my perfect hefe.

just my perspective here, but i find it very easy to pick out any flaw in my homebrew. even when i know it's really good beer, seldom am i not overly critical of myself. i have a very sensitive palate and can pick up on a lot of things in beer others don't taste. in beer that i didn't brew, i may perceive it, but it's a passing thought. in my own beers, if i taste something i didn't expect, i'll really stew on it and try to fix it in the next brew.
there's nothing wrong with being a perfectionist is brewing, as long as you can find some equilibrium. i find that being to hard and overly critical of myself can take away from the enjoyment of my beer. so if at first i perceive a flaw in one of my brews, i take notes and move on. if i know the beer's good, either from my own tasting or because friends, other beer lovers or judges have said so, i try to not pick apart that beer each time i have one. i enjoy the beer for what it is and if i brew it again, refer to my notes and memory of the flavor i'd like to eliminate.
in your case it sounds like you made an amazing beer, it might not've been perfect, or exactly what you planned on, but it seems as if it's a quality brew. and it seems that you have a solid grasp of not only the beer you're striving for, but how to brew it as well. keep working on it and one day you'll have the perfect hefe for you. i do this same thing with English style pale ale. i brew some very nice examples of the style, people love them, they score well when entered and each one is a great beer, but i seem to always find some flaw that keeps it from being 'perfect'. sometimes i'm the only one who notices any flaw, sometimes i can give a pinpoint description of the flavor and my wife will then notice it, but always says it's not something that stands out unless you're looking for it. so i keep brewing and enjoying my bitters, knowing one day i'll brew something on par with Bombardier or Hobgoblin. :mug:
 
It sounds like things have improved, but I have a question: What is the temperature difference between your yeast and wort at pitch? I ask, because I was reminded of this today:

We also recommend that you attemperate the
rehydrated yeast to with in 15F of the wort before adding to the wort.
Warm yeast into a cold wort will cause many of the yeast to produce petite
mutants that will never grow or ferment properly and will cause them to
produce H2S.
http://koehlerbeer.com/2008/06/07/rehydrating-dry-yeast-with-dr-clayton-cone/

Granted, that's for dry yeast, but I'm wondering if there may be a similar mechanism at play with liquid.
 
I do think dalime might be onto something with the secondary thing. I poured a bottle of one of my last Weiss' for my boyfriend and tasted it before swirling the yeast in for him... Sooo much better to me. So whatever compound I'm sensitive to, settles out with the yeast... Or is the yeast.

If this is the case, why not cold-crash the secondary (or use a corny as a brite tank) before transferring to the serving keg. You can even try using gelatin to help clear it (although this is obviously not typical for a hefe).

If this seems to dissipate (or disappear completely) when you get the yeast to drop, there are a lot of ways to make that happen more quickly -- particularly when you're kegging.

If you want to retain the "yeast" character of a hefe, you may also want to experiment with adding a yeast after you've cleared it. If it's a compound that is bonding to the yeast particles [as I might expect of something sulphur, since I don't think the yeast itself carries that flavor], adding a second yeast might get you the hefe's yeasty goodness without this sulphur taste. One way to do this (if you're bottling) would be to cold crash with gelatin in a "brite tank" [i.e. a corny keg with the dip tube shortened by 1"] to drop the yeast, then re-add the new yeast with your priming sugar at bottling time.
 
You might be right about letting the yeast drop. That last batch has been improving each day that we pull a pint. I bottled from the keg for the competition, and they were the first beers pulled from the keg... I would assume the bulk of the yeast was transferred with it. I did everything recommended to reduce the sulfur with that batch. Copper in the boil, copper in the FV after I noticed the aroma, tried to purge with additional CO2... Guess that even with that stuff it really is a matter of time needed for conditioning.
 
Glad to hear your beer is tasting better.

It seems pretty clear to me that you are having a problem with DMS and your yeast observation seems to suggest some link between yeast and DMS. Maybe that the DMS is somehow bonded to the yeast or that the yeast and DMS both fall out of solution at the same rate (probably the former).

I'm curious about your boil time? Are you doing a 60min or 90min boil? For someone with your palate, I wonder if you've considered a 120min boil.

Also, do you ever taste this shrimp flavor in German Pilsners?
 
Took a sniff of the new one this morning... All trace of sulfur is gone, and the green banana smell is turning to ripe banana. I'm getting excited. I'll rack to a keg tonight if I have time. Then let it sit for a week and dump the first 2 pints to get rid of any residual funk with the yeast. To answer the DMS question... That last batch had a 90 min boil. The current batch was a 75 min boil. Always at least 60. I'm just not convinced its DMS, since I use a similar grain bill for my wit, and a 60 min boil and have no issues with the sulfury taste at all. I'm convinced it's yeast derived, and brought on by the excessive protein rests. I only do a 15 min protein rest on the wit, and never the ferulic acid rest. The weizen rests were so much longer.
If this doesn't work, my next step is to use some cultured kellerweiss yeast. It's currently sitting in my fridge. I need to step it up a few more times before I get enough to use and enough to bank.
 
I just transferred a 3068 hefe to keg after 16 days in primary... pond water. Should I gas up, leave at room temp, then shake and degas? Is it just a matter of pushing the sulfur out of suspension, or should I be rousing whatever yeast is left and keeping things warm to get the yeast to clean it up?
 
You can try either. If you have the time, naturally carb the keg. The yeast going back to work might help with the flavor. If not right away, then over time the keg will clear a bit and it will taste better as the yeast fall out. I thought I found the solution, but it was just luck. I'm dealing with the same thing this very moment again, I'm hoping it will condition out!
 
i almost forgot about this thread! Since the last posts in Feb I've used 3068 a couple times and noticed a few things. One, it gets sulphur-y, about a day or two in it was kicking sulphur enough so I could smell it in the room. I forced the temp up from 64 to ~68 or so for the rest of the fermentation and it cleaned up. By the time I reached FG, the sulphur was minimal, and by packaging (~2 weeks-ish) it was gone. Second, the next time I used 3068 I started the ferment out a bit cooler, ~62 and let it bring itself up slowly, and by the end forced it up to 68-69. That time I noticed no suphur at any time. I'm sure it was there at one point, from what I get about this yeast is that it kicks sulphur-y compounds, period. Both batches were pitched with a good sized starter, larger than MrMalty suggested. Both were pitched at fermentation temp, and both batches were allowed to climb in temp during fermentation. My point is, and I'm sure you've tried this, but it seems if you pitch big and at cool fermentation temps, and slowly let temps rise 4-7 degrees, it seems to not be an issue in the finished beer.
Hope that's at least somewhat helpful. It's really frustration trying to troubleshoot off flavors.
 
I think you are onto something here... If you are following my other hefe thread, you'll see I got a perfect example out of my experiment, but in scaling it up it went back to shrimpy. What I'm seeing is that in the experiment, since it was so small, I was able to get my fermenters down to 62 before pitching... Normally, and I did this with the scaled up batch I was pitching a little high, 3-6 degrees high and throwing it in the swamp cooler. It looks like I've always been pitching at the 66-70 degree range, even if that wasn't the temp for the main fermentation.
 
Have you ever tried that recipe without any protein rest at all just to see if thats the issue?
 
I think you are onto something here... If you are following my other hefe thread, you'll see I got a perfect example out of my experiment, but in scaling it up it went back to shrimpy. What I'm seeing is that in the experiment, since it was so small, I was able to get my fermenters down to 62 before pitching... Normally, and I did this with the scaled up batch I was pitching a little high, 3-6 degrees high and throwing it in the swamp cooler. It looks like I've always been pitching at the 66-70 degree range, even if that wasn't the temp for the main fermentation.

The more I brew, the more I'm learning that pitching temp is almost as important as fermentation temp. Especially with touchy yeasts. I think I mentioned this before, but I brew a lot of English styles, and even if my swamp cooler is dialed into an ideal temp, the difference between pitching at that temp and pitching then bringing to temp is noticeable. My limited experience with Hefe yeast, 3068 and the blend 3056 is that they're touchier the the English strains I've used.
You obviously know a lot more than I do about the mashing and fermentation profiles of a true hefe, the one's I've made are PM or extract, getting the bulk of the wheat from DME. So, I can't say if yeast is your only issue, or even an issue at all, but I can say that those two yeasts (I'm pretty sure 3056 is a blend using 3068) are pretty touchy. Also, FWIW, I've noticed the 3056 (only used it once) seems to have a much cleaner profile during fermentation, not as much sulphur, but still gives the beer a nice banana/clove balance. It's not as clove-y as 3068, but still very nice. :mug:
 
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/d...-fermentation-profiles-flavor-results-317195/

This is the other thread I started to help not only get rid of the shrimp, but get the flavor profile I want....

I did brew without the protein rests. It was better, but still had sulphur. I am really thinking that my pitching temps and subsequent temp drop were stressing the yeast out too much. The mini ferment test that I chronicle in the tread yielded infinitely better beers than I was getting. And that was with proper pitch rate and pitching at fermenting temp. Even then there is a hint of sulphur in the WLP300, but it's super minor compared to what I was getting.
 
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/d...-fermentation-profiles-flavor-results-317195/

This is the other thread I started to help not only get rid of the shrimp, but get the flavor profile I want....

I did brew without the protein rests. It was better, but still had sulphur. I am really thinking that my pitching temps and subsequent temp drop were stressing the yeast out too much. The mini ferment test that I chronicle in the tread yielded infinitely better beers than I was getting. And that was with proper pitch rate and pitching at fermenting temp. Even then there is a hint of sulphur in the WLP300, but it's super minor compared to what I was getting.


Funny, I came across that thread this morning and have been picking through it throughout the day. Thanks, lots of good info there.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the flavor you've been getting is from something as seemingly harmless as pitching a few degrees too warm. Many yeast'll take it just fine, but the finicky ones tend not to, IME.
Ya know, I get just a slight hint of suplhur in some commercial hefe's. Just a teeny bit, and only sometimes (probably when it's a bit warm). I'm a nut for the Weihenstephaner Hefe-Weissbier, and I know I've detected just that tiny bit of sulphur here and there. I had a Franziskaner for the first time in about a year the other night, and that had just a bit of sulphur as it warmed. I think that as you learn more from brewing, one becomes more and more able to detect even the slightest flavor, or flaw. Double edged knife, but I'll take it!! :mug:
 
I have been hitting the poppet a couple times a day. The shrimpy aroma seems to be decreasing slightly. We'll see how the next week goes... Hopefully it'll be ready to tap by next week.
 
This is part of what I posted in the other thread...
"So, I wanted to post while this is still fresh in my head. Neva Parker from White Labs spoke at Northern Brewer in Milwaukee tonight. During the Q&A I asked about reducing sulphur. Her take was that sulphur is created by yeast stress. Stress could be caused by a number of things, (O2 levels, underpitching, etc...) but mostly temperature fluctuations. Even a swing of as little as a degree could be harmful. So my pitching temp and subsequent drop is definitely the suspect for the sulphur. The other thing she said was that sulphur production is more significant with higher temps.... So pitching low temps wouldn't do it, but stress on the yeast would. She did say that if it is present carefully raising the temp to speed up fermentation and co2 output could help scrub it. Jeremy then tried to sell me a nitrogen system, cause nitrogen is apparently really good at scrubbing sulphur."
 
This is part of what I posted in the other thread...
"So, I wanted to post while this is still fresh in my head. Neva Parker from White Labs spoke at Northern Brewer in Milwaukee tonight. During the Q&A I asked about reducing sulphur. Her take was that sulphur is created by yeast stress. Stress could be caused by a number of things, (O2 levels, underpitching, etc...) but mostly temperature fluctuations. Even a swing of as little as a degree could be harmful. So my pitching temp and subsequent drop is definitely the suspect for the sulphur. The other thing she said was that sulphur production is more significant with higher temps.... So pitching low temps wouldn't do it, but stress on the yeast would. She did say that if it is present carefully raising the temp to speed up fermentation and co2 output could help scrub it. Jeremy then tried to sell me a nitrogen system, cause nitrogen is apparently really good at scrubbing sulphur."

I figured it'd be one of the most likely suspects. That's really cool that you got to talk to someone at WL about it. Thanks for posting that. :mug:
 
I have been hitting the poppet a couple times a day. The shrimpy aroma seems to be decreasing slightly. We'll see how the next week goes... Hopefully it'll be ready to tap by next week.

Well after a week of off gassing the sulfur decreased enough to carb and tap. A few days later, it was pretty tasty but a bit of lingering swampiness. Now, one month from brew day, it tastes perfect. It took about a week in the keg at fridge temps for the flavors to become clean and bright.

Now I haven't brewed a hefe since my extract days but I never remember having sulfur issues. I feel like there is a section of the yeast book on sulfur production, I'll have to read up to avoid this next time. I mean waiting a month is not a problem, but I'd rather avoid the issue altogether if possible.
 
Thanks for the update! I'm glad it aged out. Even having talked with the yeast rep, and trying to do everything possible to avoid the sulfur, I still got it... This time it's a different strain of yeast and with my first batch it began clearing out a week and a 1/2 after it started. Around 3 weeks from brew day the airlock smelled of delicious bananas and apricots. I'm currently at 1 1/2 weeks from brew day on the second and still waiting for the sulfur to start diminishing. All I can smell is the sulfur, so hopefully after it leaves I'll have a nice clovey hefe.
 
Update: my second hefe... The one going to the competition has started changing over to a nice Weiss smell. Also at exactly 2 1/2 weeks from brew day. So WLP380 does indeed produce the sulphur, but it does age out as well. The proof will be in the glass though. My last batch with 300/3068 the smell diminished, but it still had a sulphur undertone in the glass. With the mini ferment test the 300 did have the most remaining sulphur, and 380 the least... So here's hoping!
 
I want to post an update: the re-brew ended up "swampy" as well. I think I have some insight though. I took samples of the last two to NB and now think I actually have 3 different problems going on with this. 1. Sulfur 2. Minerally 3. Grainy. The 3 together give the impression of swampy pond water. Our sulfur is aging out, but a funny pond water flavor is still there. Wait it's 4 things... I think an incorrect ester balance is accentuating the sulfur, and I think that I may need to go back to water chemistry and yeast nutrients. While the pitching temp IS extremely important it is not the cause of my off flavor. The re-brew was vastly different in ester profile, but still the same in the off flavor. Acid malt timing is not a factor in this flavor. Starters made with DME come out well, so I'm thinking my mash is not giving me optimum FAN levels. Whereas the nutrient levels in extract are usually sufficient. Low free amino nitrogen can increase sulfur and ester production.... 2 of my 4 possible factors. I remember adding a bit of DAP to a brew lately with the regular amount of nutrient, but didn't write down which one... So I don't know for sure if it was the mini fermentation test, but I suspect it might have been. Sulfur was minimized on that one, as was esters. The other thing I'm changing with the next batch is on NB's recommendation to use Distilled water with only a tsp of lactic acid. That will eliminate my water as a factor. I have been using RO water with small additions, but it is taken after the softener... And I know that some stuff gets through.... Our water is hideously bad. Most of my other brews are fine with it, but don't use as finicky of a yeast. Oh well. Another test. Too many factors.
 
I would not think much gets past a 5 stage RO unit (that's what I use post softener). What small additions have you made? Any additions to the mash or all in the kettle? I've started to use 25% Phosphoric for my acid addition instead of lactic (I have it around for wine testing).

Nice updates, thanks for posting.
 
All additions were in the mash. 1/4 tsp of calcium chloride, 1/4 tsp chalk & 1/8 tsp gypsum. I did have my RO water tested @ ward labs. At that time I had about 2 ppm of sodium and chloride getting through. Our city water has radioactive particles in it... I wonder if those will make it through a filter then muck up the yeast ;) lol. I'm just grasping at straws. My processes produce awesome beers for any other style. But this minerally swampy flavor is really confounding me with the hefes.
 
I know I'm calling wolf again... but I think I have it! I did a comparison of the base malts all fermented out with WLP 380 and I found that the grainy/husky flavor was from the weyermann German wheat malt, and the dirty/swampy/dirt like flavor was from the German pilsner malt. I compared 2 other pilsners and wheats. I found that weyermann's bohemian malts are far superior to what I was using. I have a new brew going right now and combined with all I've learned from this thread, my yeast thread and the base malt comparison thread, I hope that this next one nails it. While all of the little changes I've made to this point have improved my beer, they are not that final piece. I hope that changing my malt and mashing a little thicker and hotter, get me to where I want to be. Things it wasn't: water, nutrient, protein rest, actual sulphur (* although it has been in several brews, it has conditioned out.)
 
As an update, I firmly still believe that the malt selection was the key to my flavor issues. The hefe made with the bohemian malts was distinctly different and better than all my other attempts. Now I feel it's just a matter of dialing in my mash and fermentation characteristics to get the flavor expression I'm looking for in my hefe. I have another going right now. First time I've hit my intended mash right on, and fermenting super low... Albeit vigorously at 58 deg right now. This one is a winner. I feel it!
 
Reading over your last few posts, I'm now wondering about your water. You mention radioactivity, maybe other contaminates. This may have been mentioned, I may have even mentioned it, but you could brew with distilled. Build the water profile you want from it, see what ya get. I'm thinking this because you're getting the same off flavor with different ingredients, yeasts, etc. Even if you're experimenting with different minerals/additives in the water, it's the same base R/O water, right?
Our club recently had a presentation about brewing water, and I was really interested to hear that some of the local guys were having trouble with off flavors in their lighter beers. They could brew a mean brown or porter, but a good pale ale ("golden beer" as the Oldtimer giving the presentation called it) was difficult. Really hard water here in Mpls, either from the river or the Jordan aquifer, both hardwater sources. I'm thinking maybe you're coming across a similar issue, not so much with hardness, but maybe with brewing a yeast derived style with water that may be negatively effecting the yeast. I'm not well versed in hefe, or brewing German styles, but I know that water quality/conditions played a big part in what traditional beers were brewed where. BoPils is hwta it is because of the soft water in the region, English pale ale is bitey and minerally because of the harder water in the Isles. Just some more thoughts for you, I know what it's like to hunt a white whale that is replicating to a "t" your favorite style of beer.
 
Thanks. I have looked into water and eliminated it as the cause to my funk. I have brewed with local spring water, city water, RO water with & without adjustment, and pure Distilled water. All had the same dirty flavor, until I switched grain brands. Check out my other threads that I quote earlier. They go into more detail on my experiments. I brewed these last 2 batches with 1/2 RO & 1/2 spring water.
 
Cool. I remember you mentioning water earlier on but I didn't go back and re-read too far today. I have nothing to contribute to the base malt that you're using since I've never used it myself, but it would make a ton of sense that a specific brand of Bohemian malt would be the one needed to make a great hefe. I'm relating this to my brewing English styles, and you can use the right yeast and hops, manipulate water to mimic the water of certain regions, but if you're not using the proper base malt from a specific maltster, the end product will lack or even show off flavors/aromas. It's a tricky balance with some beers, but for me it's one of the things that makes home brewing fun. Good luck on this latest batch, let us know how it turns out.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top