Does fermcap retard fermentation?

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Beerbeque

Beerbeque

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I hate dealing with the mess and hassle of blowoff tubes so I used fermcap drops last time to keep my kraeusen contained but my ferment looks more sluggish than it should so I wonder if the fermcap retarded my fermentation? What has your experience with fermcap and fermentation?
 
I've had issues with fermentation either starting in the normal amount of time (for me) with or without fermcap being added. Granted most of my batches have it added at least to the boil if not also to the fermenter. Using a starter, and pure O2 to infuse the luscious wort, I get active fermentation [typically] within 12 hours of pitching yeast.

What dosage did you use? I typically go with the recommended 2-3 drops per gallon in the boil (starting boil volume) and 1-2 drops per gallon in fermenter.
 
Ooops, I added SIX drops to my fermenter. Maybe that's why my ferm seems sluggish. It started early and vigoriously but now (48 hours in) seems rather lifeless.
 
How are you judging the speed of your fermentation for comparison purposes? Fermcap should have no appreciable effect on fermentation process, though it will reduce krausen and make things "look" slower.
 
I haven't ever used it because it kind of weirds me out putting silicone in my beer. I know it's supposed to drop out but it just doesn't seem right.
 
In my researching the use of anti foam agents and Ferm-cap specifically I have spoken to several bio-chemists in the industry and there is no incidence of there being an effect on the actual fermentation process, only the expansion of the krausen produced is reduced due to less surface tension. Two of the chemists also happened to be professional brewers as well.

In addition, if the product is used in the boil it does not need to be used again in the fermentor:)

The FDA also recommends that the product, being silicon based should only be used in beer that can be filtered. There are numerous threads here discussing Ferm-cap you can search as well as a list of alternative products that serve the same purpose.
 
duboman said:
The FDA also recommends that the product, being silicon based should only be used in beer that can be filtered.
Click to expand...

I find that hard to believe, OR the FDA doesn't know what the foam their talking about... I would tend to believe the government/FDA doesn't have a clue when it comes to these things. :drunk:

From the Crosby-Baker web site on Fermcap-s...

"FermCap S is a unique emulsion of dimethylpolysiloxane. It is an extremely effective, surface active agent that prevents foam formation during fermentation by reducing surface tension. Reduced foaming increases fermentation capacity and prevents mess, improves alpha-acid utilization and CO2 recovery, and prevents hazes due to collapsed foam. Because of FermCap's novel behavior, it completely adsorbs onto the yeast, vessel walls, and filter media. No FermCap remains in the finished beer."

While it does mention 'filter media' it, in no way, recommends filtering. I've also read, from other sources, that it settles out with the yeast/trub and doesn't remain in the finished beer. Unless you're grabbing trub on purpose and putting it into your bottles/kegs that is. Even then, I would expect it to settle into the bottom, and not go into the glass. Unless, of course, you've brewed something that you actually want to have the trub/yeast/etc. in the glass (a wheat perhaps?)...

Personally, I'm not brewing anything where I want trub/sediment in my glass. I'm also kegging (2+ weeks in the brew fridge normally before pouring a pint from a keg) so it essentially gets cold crashed before it goes to glass.
 
Golddiggie said:
I find that hard to believe, OR the FDA doesn't know what the foam their talking about... I would tend to believe the government/FDA doesn't have a clue when it comes to these things. :drunk:

From the Crosby-Baker web site on Fermcap-s...

"FermCap S is a unique emulsion of dimethylpolysiloxane. It is an extremely effective, surface active agent that prevents foam formation during fermentation by reducing surface tension. Reduced foaming increases fermentation capacity and prevents mess, improves alpha-acid utilization and CO2 recovery, and prevents hazes due to collapsed foam. Because of FermCap's novel behavior, it completely adsorbs onto the yeast, vessel walls, and filter media. No FermCap remains in the finished beer."

While it does mention 'filter media' it, in no way, recommends filtering. I've also read, from other sources, that it settles out with the yeast/trub and doesn't remain in the finished beer. Unless you're grabbing trub on purpose and putting it into your bottles/kegs that is. Even then, I would expect it to settle into the bottom, and not go into the glass. Unless, of course, you've brewed something that you actually want to have the trub/yeast/etc. in the glass (a wheat perhaps?)...

Personally, I'm not brewing anything where I want trub/sediment in my glass. I'm also kegging (2+ weeks in the brew fridge normally before pouring a pint from a keg) so it essentially gets cold crashed before it goes to glass.
Click to expand...

Not to mention the FDA approves consumption of this product. And the FDA wouldn't make recommendations about what products to use/not use in homebrewing. I'm calling shenanigans.
 
If the krausen gets near the mouth of the carboy I hit it with a couple of drops. This seems to keep it at bay for a day and then I may have to hit it again. That's usually all I have to do.
 
pabloj13 said:
Not to mention the FDA approves consumption of this product. And the FDA wouldn't make recommendations about what products to use/not use in homebrewing. I'm calling shenanigans.
Click to expand...

The FDA approves consumption of many things, however they also set limits of recommended amounts and state that exceeding certain amounts of things can be detrimental to your health, that is their job. For example, it is safe to take NSAIDs to relieve pain and inflammation, however if you abuse the product you can suffer liver damage, develop ulcers and cause other problems to your body. You can take Viagra as a safe product also but beware there is a 14 page disclaimer stating that if you take it, any one of a myriad of medical maladies may occur to you as well including death.

This taken from email conversation with Bio-chemist at Birko corp:

"One thing you do need to be aware of is that Fermcap S is a silicone based antifoam (dimethyl poly slioxane). Birko sells a silicone based antifoam to brewers (Birko AF100) however we strongly discourage its use in beers that are not clarifies by filtration or centrifugation. The FDA has limits on the amount of this material that is allowed in food. Here is a comments from Dana that was posted on a probrewers forum:

"Brewers should not use silicone-containing antifoam for unfiltered beers. The FDA allows active silicone to be used up to 10 parts-per-million (ppm) but stipulates that the silicone must be removed prior to packaging by either filtration or centrifugation. In the case of unfiltered beers, use a food grade, non-silicone antifoam."

I'm not trying to dissuade people from using Fermcap, in fact I use it when necessary. The information I stated is not shenanigans and if you do a basic internet search you will in fact find a ton of articles on brewing forums and published articles repeating this information as well as other products that can be used as substitution.

The fact remains that if used beyond the limits stated by the FDA it should be filtered out. In addition, some people are just really against putting these types of products in their beer so they should be educated.

As with anything, if used as labeled there should be no problem but lots of people do not read labels or follow directions and think that if a little is great a lot is better. As a home brewer using 1-2 drops per gallon I am not concerned but in a larger batch setting or commercial application I can understand the concern and limits set forth.

I know people that use it in their starter, then in the boil and then again in the fermentor for example and IMO that is complete overuse of the product and if that is their routine for each and every batch of beer they brew, then yes, I would be concerned that over time they are over exposed to the product.

Just my .02 :mug:
 
I guess I live by the rule that if I wouldn't eat or drink it by it's self I don't add it to my beer. I have yet to have a fermentation that I couldn't contain on my own. My .02
 
two_one_seven said:
I guess I live by the rule that if I wouldn't eat or drink it by it's self I don't add it to my beer. I have yet to have a fermentation that I couldn't contain on my own. My .02
Click to expand...

Hmmm, the only thing in beer i would eat or drink by itself would be the water. What kinda crazy logic is that? I wouldn't chug vinegar yet i have no problem eating it mixed in with other ingredients.
 
All arguments or quibbling aside the answer to the op's question is simple...If it retarded fermentation, or affected it in any way, do you think we'd bother using it????


Pretty simple answer, eh?
 
I've used the drops (about 3) in my 5 gallon batches and the only difference I can see is a slight lessening of the Krausen formation. The activity in the fermenter ( with or without the drops ) shows the same activity and starts and stops along the same timelines. Never had a problem or seen a difference with head formation once the beer has had time to carbonate and condition.

bosco
 
I put little stock in anything any federal agency says, one way or the other. The FDA has allowable limits of rat droppings as well, but that doesn't make me feel like it's ok to consume rat droppings.
 
duboman said:
The FDA approves consumption of many things, however they also set limits of recommended amounts and state that exceeding certain amounts of things can be detrimental to your health, that is their job. For example, it is safe to take NSAIDs to relieve pain and inflammation, however if you abuse the product you can suffer liver damage, develop ulcers and cause other problems to your body. You can take Viagra as a safe product also but beware there is a 14 page disclaimer stating that if you take it, any one of a myriad of medical maladies may occur to you as well including death.

This taken from email conversation with Bio-chemist at Birko corp:

"One thing you do need to be aware of is that Fermcap S is a silicone based antifoam (dimethyl poly slioxane). Birko sells a silicone based antifoam to brewers (Birko AF100) however we strongly discourage its use in beers that are not clarifies by filtration or centrifugation. The FDA has limits on the amount of this material that is allowed in food. Here is a comments from Dana that was posted on a probrewers forum:

"Brewers should not use silicone-containing antifoam for unfiltered beers. The FDA allows active silicone to be used up to 10 parts-per-million (ppm) but stipulates that the silicone must be removed prior to packaging by either filtration or centrifugation. In the case of unfiltered beers, use a food grade, non-silicone antifoam."

I'm not trying to dissuade people from using Fermcap, in fact I use it when necessary. The information I stated is not shenanigans and if you do a basic internet search you will in fact find a ton of articles on brewing forums and published articles repeating this information as well as other products that can be used as substitution.

The fact remains that if used beyond the limits stated by the FDA it should be filtered out. In addition, some people are just really against putting these types of products in their beer so they should be educated.

As with anything, if used as labeled there should be no problem but lots of people do not read labels or follow directions and think that if a little is great a lot is better. As a home brewer using 1-2 drops per gallon I am not concerned but in a larger batch setting or commercial application I can understand the concern and limits set forth.

I know people that use it in their starter, then in the boil and then again in the fermentor for example and IMO that is complete overuse of the product and if that is their routine for each and every batch of beer they brew, then yes, I would be concerned that over time they are over exposed to the product.

Just my .02 :mug:
Click to expand...


Adults can consume 500mg of simethicone per day according to the FDA. This is the active ingredient in Gas-X (and a number of other commercially-available, FDA-approved drugs and the same class of compound in Fermcap-S). That is enough simethicone for 25 batches of beer! If you are drinking 25 5 gallon batches in a day, you have way more problems than simethicone toxicity. Keep in mind this compound is approved for use in infants, probably the most restricted class when it comes to FDA approval. Silly refusal to believe something the government says and comparison to FDA approved levels of contaminants (which do not have to meet efficacy and safety standards like active compounds) aside, if you can show me evidence that this might be harmful (other than an email from a "biochemist") let me know.
 
RiffMagnum said:
Hmmm, the only thing in beer i would eat or drink by itself would be the water. What kinda crazy logic is that? I wouldn't chug vinegar yet i have no problem eating it mixed in with other ingredients.
Click to expand...

Not saying shotgunning it by itself. Just a spoonfull, I have tasted vinegar solo and I'm sure most people have. I taste my hops too.....because I want to know my raw ingrediants. But I certainly wouldn't take a sip of fermcap. Which was my initial point.

And yes what Revvy said it doesn't slow ferementation..,,,,,,,
 
Hmmm.. I don't like any product that keeps their main ingredient a secret..LOL

It is most probably made from Soybean oil and a little wax thrown in. A time tested antifoam combination.

Just like keeping pasta from boiling over, add a dollop of butter or soy oil... Same thing.

I use silicone ( 3 dops in 6+ gallons ).. We probably ingest more silicone on a daily basis than an entire 5 gallons of beer (if there is any at all left after the boil, fermenting, bottling and aging.) Frying oils (think fish fries, french fries or any number of freshly fried or prepared fried foods), candies, manufacture of animal feeds, medications, soaps, shampoos and the list goes on..

Most if not all the other silicone agents are also Kosher is that's important to anyone.

omo

bosco
 
Since Silicone based anti foam reagents work really well, and since finished beer has foam on top, I'm guessing that very little is left in finished beer. Even at a more generous dose of 7 grams per barrel (about 7 mL, recommended dose for Fermcap AT is 1-7 g/bbl) the max amount of the product would be 50ppm, and that's assuming it's 100% active compound which it isn't. Almost all of it is going to be left in the kettle and then the fermenter.
 
I remember there was a lot of hoopla about this and it got me paranoid. I ordered and used the natural stuff from chi company and it doesn't work nearly as well. I need it for my starters and the kettle. It also helps quite a bit in the fermenter. Hopefully most of it settles out.
 
I use Fermcap-S all the time and never had a problem with fermentation. Regardless of which step(s) you use it in I stick to the 1-2 drops per gallon for the batch size. If I use 1 drop in a starter, then that is 1 drop less that I can use in the boil or fermenter so that no matter what I never go over 10 drops for 5 gallon batch. Although rarely do I need more than 2-3 drops to prevent boilover.
 
duboman said:
This taken from email conversation with Bio-chemist at Birko corp:

"One thing you do need to be aware of is that Fermcap S is a silicone based antifoam (dimethyl poly slioxane). Birko sells a silicone based antifoam to brewers (Birko AF100) however we strongly discourage its use in beers that are not clarifies by filtration or centrifugation. The FDA has limits on the amount of this material that is allowed in food. Here is a comments from Dana that was posted on a probrewers forum:

"Brewers should not use silicone-containing antifoam for unfiltered beers. The FDA allows active silicone to be used up to 10 parts-per-million (ppm) but stipulates that the silicone must be removed prior to packaging by either filtration or centrifugation. In the case of unfiltered beers, use a food grade, non-silicone antifoam."
Click to expand...

Nice switch, They state Fermcap is silicone based then mention their own product (not Fermcap and not necessarily even similar) and how they discourage it's use in unfiltered beer (Their product). FDA has limits on the amount of this material (their formula?) allowed in food. Then goes on to quote the chemist from Birko directly referencing "Active silicone". Then neatly directs the reader to a "food grade, non-silicone antifoam", one of which they happen to manufacture.

Yeah, I call Shenanigans. Empirical evidence shows that the material settles out when the wort/beer is still. Which is why you have to add more to the fermenter if you leave your brew trub in the pot, your fermcap settled with the trub cone, assuming you whirlpool. Finished and conditioned beer having no head retention issues further underscores the point. Sounds like one guy, and this is the only person I've seen quoted giving that line, shilling for his companies product (his job, OK) and possibly feeding off peoples fears about "SILICONE" regarding the implant scares. Not OK. IMNSHO if you have to fearmonger to sell your product it was Shyte to begin with.
 
Fermcap AT has no effect on fermentation (negative), we only add to our kettle though, and assume a tiny bit transfers to the fermenter. Never had a boilover or problems with krausen clogging the blowoff. Solid product. During knockdown and brite transfer almost all should be gone, and what little is left is inert anyways.
 
I use this product quite extensively. In my starters, a lot of time in the boil, and in the fermenter when pitching yeast. As far as I can tell has never had a negative effect on fermentation or head retention. I tried the non silicone alternative and I really wanted to like it but it did not work nearly as well.
 
moski said:
Nice switch, They state Fermcap is silicone based then mention their own product (not Fermcap and not necessarily even similar) and how they discourage it's use in unfiltered beer (Their product). FDA has limits on the amount of this material (their formula?) allowed in food. Then goes on to quote the chemist from Birko directly referencing "Active silicone". Then neatly directs the reader to a "food grade, non-silicone antifoam", one of which they happen to manufacture.

Yeah, I call Shenanigans. Empirical evidence shows that the material settles out when the wort/beer is still. Which is why you have to add more to the fermenter if you leave your brew trub in the pot, your fermcap settled with the trub cone, assuming you whirlpool. Finished and conditioned beer having no head retention issues further underscores the point. Sounds like one guy, and this is the only person I've seen quoted giving that line, shilling for his companies product (his job, OK) and possibly feeding off peoples fears about "SILICONE" regarding the implant scares. Not OK. IMNSHO if you have to fearmonger to sell your product it was Shyte to begin with.
Click to expand...

I think you have missed the point and I am not defending the folks at Birko or the conversation I relayed. nor am I trying to engage in argument or debate. I simply relayed information provided to me by the actual manufacturers of the product in question.

The key point is the FDA and Commercial breweries which come under the auspices of the FDA.

While it is IMO a non issue with the home brewery's scale, when you are talking about 1000's of barrels of beer these brewery's are not using 5-10 drops of silicone based anti foam product, they, in fact are using gallons of the stuff and if it is not centrifuges or filtered out it most likely will be in excess of the FDAs allowed limits which creates a non compliance issue.

As a result they have made that statement and have recommended an alternative, regardless of who manufactures it. They are also responsible for their product and have to provide warnings of use to all who use it for liability issues.

Personally I would be interested in seeing your stated empirical evidence that it settles out and is rendered harmless so feel free to provide a link instead of just calling shenanigans on something.

I personally have researched this and engaged the bio-chemists in conversation and I have not read any such empirical evidence such as you state.

The bottom line is some people really are interested in what they use and put in the products they consume and are entitled to be properly informed so they can make educated decisions. I use ferm-cap and have no issues on my scale of Brewing but that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong and others may choose not to use it for the reasons already pointed out and that too is their choice.

To answer the poster's question, no, ferm-cap-s does not retard fermentation. It simply breaks up the tensile friction of the hot break to allow gas to escape so you do not experience a boil over or over active blow off during fermentation.

There are many other products that will do the same thing such as baby gas drops and others although some of these are silicone based as well. Some work, some don't.

Somewhere in this forum Revvy posted a large list of alternatives but I cannot find the link. Perhaps someone has it and can post it.
 
Olive Oil is an alternative...doesn't work as well.

Fermcap AT isn't on the FDA list, only Fermcap S....which is still ridiculous.

Dimethylpolysiloxane is inert and non toxic...it is not digested if ingested.

I'm a biochemist.
 
duboman said:
I personally have researched this and engaged the bio-chemists in conversation and I have not read any such empirical evidence such as you state.
Click to expand...

I think the empirical evidence is that there is not excessive (or any) foam during the boil, but the finished beer retains a head nicely. If there were still an appreciable amount of fermcap in suspension in the beer that is consumed, head retention would be affected. Let's not get too carried away with use of the word "empirical." Also questionable use of the term "tensile friction." But that's way OT and even a bit troll-like, so let's move on.

Ok, way back to the OP. As you have probably figured out by now, Fermcap has nothing to do with your sluggish fermentation. Are you sure it's sluggish and not just one of those calm and quiet fermentations? What yeast did you use? Did you use a starter? Did you oxygenate? Is it a big beer? These factors have way more to do with lag time and fermentation action than anything else.
 
I think fermcap, when used as directed is fine and firmly believe it will not retard fermentation.

That said, what's such a messy hassle about a blowoff tube? You attach it to a bung, and put the other end in sanitizer. If you're getting a mess from the blowoff itself, use a bigger jar/small bucket for the sanitizer, and place some sanitized aluminum foil loosely over the sanitizer jar/bucket, where it will knock down blow-off bubbles and keep the mess in the jar/bucket.

Brewing beer is enough work, that the "hassle" of a blowoff tube compared to the "hassle" of fermcap and sanitizing an airlock is diminishing returns. Just forego additives and do about 10 seconds of extra work and your concerns will be addressed.
 
2bluewagons said:
I think the empirical evidence is that there is not excessive (or any) foam during the boil, but the finished beer retains a head nicely. If there were still an appreciable amount of fermcap in suspension in the beer that is consumed, head retention would be affected. Let's not get too carried away with use of the word "empirical." Also questionable use of the term "tensile friction." But that's way OT and even a bit troll-like, so let's move on.

Ok, way back to the OP. As you have probably figured out by now, Fermcap has nothing to do with your sluggish fermentation. Are you sure it's sluggish and not just one of those calm and quiet fermentations? What yeast did you use? Did you use a starter? Did you oxygenate? Is it a big beer? These factors have way more to do with lag time and fermentation action than anything else.
Click to expand...

I wasn't trying to be "troll-like" or an a$$-hat, I was just curious, I like to learn.........
 
Hey man, no worries. I was calling myself troll-like for disagreeing on the finer points of using "tensile" as a friction descriptor. You are certainly among friends in your nerdy ways. My point was that sometimes in our effort to learn and study the minutia, we overlook the simple observations and should take some time just to enjoy the dang beer... :mug:
 
Two weeks ago I brewed a hefe with a 60/40 wheat/pils mix and used a blow off tube into a gallon jug that I was cleaning up the blow off from twice. This week I did another 5gal with only a hop change and finally got my fermcap in and used some in the boil and fermenter. No blow off, a half inch kreuesen in a violently churning carboy. Look for movement in the wort if you're not using a bucket or check that you don't have a leak that's bypassing your airlock. Mine's blowing like a goldfish bubbler.
 

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