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Old 10-07-2014, 03:39 PM   #1
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Default Discouraging Sacromyces Growth

So, I just got my hands on some sourdough starter that has been in my family for a super long time and the stuff tastes fantastic. The sourness is great with some wonderful aromatic flavors. I'd like to try to use it in a beer or cider but I don't want the sacromyces to dominate over whatever other bacteria and yeasts are in the mix. When making the starter for my beer, is there anyway to slow the sac down so that everything else in the starter has a chance to get going before pitching? Any other suggestions for getting interesting results from sourdough starter that doesn't just taste like bread yeast?

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Old 10-09-2014, 05:47 AM   #2
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Update: I just pitched some sourdough starter into about a pint of apple juice (because I didn't feel like making wort) just to see what it does. Guess I had a lot of misconceptions about sourdough, like the fact that it contains much sacromyces at all. Maybe someone knows more than me but the main yeast is usually Candida right? I guess I'll see what flavors this produces in my tiny apple juice starter.

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Old 10-10-2014, 03:31 PM   #3
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Update again: the juice is cloudy and I can see countless tiny bubbles streaming up the sides of the fermenter. Smells good, too. Like cider, I guess.

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Old 10-10-2014, 04:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brwagur View Post
Update: I just pitched some sourdough starter into about a pint of apple juice (because I didn't feel like making wort) just to see what it does. Guess I had a lot of misconceptions about sourdough, like the fact that it contains much sacromyces at all. Maybe someone knows more than me but the main yeast is usually Candida right? I guess I'll see what flavors this produces in my tiny apple juice starter.
I hope it's not Candida, as that's a pathogen that causes a disease known as Thrush. Bread yeast is Saccharomyces. My 30-year old microbiology books don't have anything on what's in sourdough. I'm guessing because of the flavor that there is Sacc. plus Lactobacillus bacteria. Maybe other bacteria as well.
Interesting experiment- keep us informed.
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Old 10-10-2014, 04:41 PM   #5
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Candida is a common yeast in fermented foods, including kefir and sourdough starter. The infection you're referring to is external (skin, etc.). EDIT: Thrush is often in the mouth, but that again is fairly external (a colony growing on the tongue). It isn't a pathogen when taken internally.

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Old 10-10-2014, 05:56 PM   #6
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As to what microorganisms live in sourdough: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourd...pe_I_sourdough

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Old 10-11-2014, 02:05 AM   #7
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Thanks for the link brwagur. Interesting read. Now I want to make some bread(and beer of course)

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Old 10-11-2014, 02:09 AM   #8
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Candida is a common yeast in fermented foods, including kefir and sourdough starter. The infection you're referring to is external (skin, etc.). EDIT: Thrush is often in the mouth, but that again is fairly external (a colony growing on the tongue). It isn't a pathogen when taken internally.
Thanks. Candida albicans is the pathogen. I didn't think that of course there were other species that were not pathogenic.
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Old 10-11-2014, 02:14 AM   #9
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Thanks for the link brwagur. Interesting read. Now I want to make some bread(and beer of course)
But there is a bread thread
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f56/home...thread-457601/
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Old 10-11-2014, 03:38 PM   #10
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Candida is a big genus. Kind of like how there are species of Saccharomyces that are pathogens in certain circumstances (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_kluyveri). Candida humilis shows up as the dominant yeast in sourdoughs typically, but you'll also see populations of Saccharomyces species and occasionally other yeast.

As for sourdough microbiota: there are a lot of factors that influence what's there. Among those, substrate (type of flour), pH (level of acidity), water availability (hydration level of the starter), temperature, and how often it's fed all play roles in determining what organisms are going to thrive. You see sets of these conditions loosely defined as the "types" (eg. Type 1, Type 2, etc).

Typically you see a ratio of about 100 bacterial cells per yeast cell, but this can differ greatly depending on the above conditions. I know this to be true in my sourdough starter, which is kept at 100% hydration (equal mix of flour and water), fed with 4x as much new flour/water as existing starter, and often refrigerated. I also see a stable and dominant population of Saccharomyces cerevisiae and Lactobacillus that hasn't changed much over the ~2 years I've been able to periodically check it with agar and microscopy.

Interestingly I've tried pitching it into wort, and it ferments pretty clean and fast, but doesn't produce any noticeable acidity. Kind of boring, really. However every sourdough is a little bit different so someone else's may produce great beer.
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