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Old 03-30-2012, 01:01 AM   #1
mcbethenstein
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I have been perfecting and tweaking my Weiss for the last year. And although I have a great Weiss, it is missing something. I have been soley using wlp300/wyeast 3068 in my recipe, and I've tried many different fermentations but can't seem to get that clove punch that I want! I've also been battling sulfur that tastes like shrimpy pond water. What I've learned is that too much protein rest= excessive sulphur formation & yes, thinner beer. I have been using acid malt, and I think that my final product is a little too acidic, as I can't seem to get that round, slightly sweet wheat mouthfeel that the commercial examples have. Mine has too much citrus tone to it with the acid. What I think I will be doing, is brewing up a 2 1/2 gal batch, and splitting into 4 glass cookie jars. (I use these for yeast propagation, since I can't seem to keep an erylenmeyer flask intact for more than a week!) Into each container I will pitch 38 billion cells of 4 different yeasts. (pitch rate of 16 mil per ml) Will ferment starting at 60 and raising to 64 with swamp cooler and fish tank heater, and finishing out at 68. Since it will be easier to measure out 1/3 of a vial than a smack pack I'll be testing out WLP 300, WLP 351, WLP 380 and cultured kellerweiss.

I understand that there are many variables in producing the flavors I desire, my hope is that this thread will help myself and other brewers zero in on the factors that will help them get what they want from their yeast. For the purposes of this thread, I would like anyone who has experience with hefe yeasts to list their results. Please include yeast brand, mash rests used with times, OG, pitch rate (how much yeast/batch size), pitching temp, aeration info, fermentation temp profile, vessel info (open or closed), finishing info, flavor notes. Include how the ester/phenol changed with time.

I'll start:
Brew date: 12/29/11
Yeast: Wyeast 3068
Mash profile: 113* for 15 min, 122* for 15 min, 128* for 15 min, double decoction for sacc rests, 75 min boil
OG: 1.047
Pitch rate: 1 L starter into 5.5 gal
FV: plastic bucket, closed with 3 piece airlock
Pitching temp: 67*
Aeration: 48 sec O2 through 2 micron stone
Fermentation profile: put fermenter into swamp cooler after pitching, it dropped to 54* by the next morning. Switched out warm water to bring temp up, settled around 60-61* for main part of fermentation. Brought upstairs and it got to 64* to help decrease the sulphur.
Finishing: kegged and purged with CO2 to reduce sulphur. On tap at 3.0 volumes.
Flavor: huge sulphur! After yeast settled and conditioned sulphur subsided. Banana and clove subdued, but balanced. Slight citrus twang.

Please do not post theoretical information that you have not backed up with actual results. I'm hoping we can prove/disprove the "common" hefe advice. We all know it, but it may not be as simple as ferment warm for banana, ferment cold for cloves. What I've been researching/ reading lately is that you under pitch to accent banana (6 mil/ml), pitch adequately (12 mil/ml) for balance and over pitch (14-18 mil/ml) for cloves, then use temperature to control intensity. Warmer = more flavor compounds, but higher risk of off flavors, and colder = subdued and cleaner ferment, while still having the esters and phenols that the pitch rate would determine.

I will post more as I look through my notes and as my experiments progress.

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Old 03-30-2012, 01:23 AM   #2
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The ferulic acid rest is supposed to promote cloves. Also, 62 is the recommended fermentation everywhere I have read (admittedly only Brewing With Wheat and Brewing Classic Styles).

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Old 03-30-2012, 01:30 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afr0byte
The ferulic acid rest is supposed to promote cloves. Also, 62 is the recommended fermentation everywhere I have read (admittedly only Brewing With Wheat and Brewing Classic Styles).
Yes, have been reading that as well, but I would like everyone to share their results. Other factors in production of 4-vinyl guaiacol are percent wheat which with a hefe will be 50-70%, fermenter shape and headspace pressure, oxygenation rate, and pitch rate. Mess anyone of those up and you may not get quite the ester/phenol profile you want.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:31 AM   #4
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Trust me, I'm not Bill Nye the Science guy, my mash schedule was given to me by a good brewing friend with far more experience but my Hefe turned out great!

6.25G batch
WY3068

All German Hefe, 50% German wheat malt, 50% German Pils. 2 oz total Hallertauer hops, 1oz FwH, .25 @20, .25@10, .25@5, .25@FO

Whirlpool, gravity drain through CFC into primary at 61F, pitched +\- 300B cells (3 step starter)

Mash, 122F for 30 minutes, raise to 158 for 30 minutes, raise to 168 for 10 , batch sparge 1 step @192F

Ferment at 58F for 21 days, bottle with 5.2oz priming sugar, condition 14 days.

Pleasant banana aroma, malt forward, nice dense head with average retention, good lacing, strong clove flavor with slight banana tones throughout.

Proven very popular, need to brew more.

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Old 03-30-2012, 04:14 PM   #5
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Brew date: 2/5/12
Yeast: Wyeast 3068
Mash profile: single infusion @154* for 60 min. 65 min boil
OG: 1.051
Pitch rate: 1 Smackpack into 5.5 gal
FV: plastic bucket, closed with 3 piece airlock
Pitching temp: 66*
Aeration: 60 sec O2 through 2 micron stone
Fermentation profile: put fermenter into swamp cooler after pitching, it dropped to 62*, aroma phenolic. Turned on fish tank heater and brought up to 63* by next morning, that evening huge egg farts. Up to 65* by morning 2. Up to 66 morning 3, smell turning to green banana smell, and sulphur diminishing. @ 2 weeks aroma had changed over to ripe banana. Fermentation stayed at 66-67* for peak. Raised temp to 68 to finish it out.
Finishing: kegged & on tap at 3.0 volumes. Only kegged 4.75 gal, was careful to leave any trub and a layer of thick/hazy beer behind.
Flavor: First pulls were very chunky and yeasty. Sample the other night, 18 days after kegging: Holy banana bread! Dense head that tastes like sweet banana bread batter. Definitely too sweet, this could be from carapils addition, cutting my acid malt, or cutting out all acid & protein rests to decrease precursors to the sulphur compounds. Will see how this ages. Clove very faint. Banana dominates.

Edit (5/4/12): tasted again at Easter. Has lost that very sweet flavor that I got after first kegging, I now suspect that to be from the larger proteins that had settled out in my keezer. Subsequent pulls have been very similar to my past results. Slight sour/citrus, subdued balance of clove to banana, banana dominates the aroma, and sulphur that lingers. Definitely better and cleaner than the 12/29/11 batch that I reviewed at the start of the thread... But still not where I want it to be.

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Old 03-30-2012, 09:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbethenstein View Post
Brew date: 2/5/12
Yeast: Wyeast 3068
Mash profile: single infusion @154* for 60 min. 65 min boil
OG: 1.051
Pitch rate: 1 Smackpack into 5.5 gal
FV: plastic bucket, closed with 3 piece airlock
Pitching temp: 66*
Aeration: 60 sec O2 through 2 micron stone
Fermentation profile: put fermenter into swamp cooler after pitching, it dropped to 62*, aroma phenolic. Turned on fish tank heater and brought up to 63* by next morning, that evening huge egg farts. Up to 65* by morning 2. Up to 66 morning 3, smell turning to green banana smell, and sulphur diminishing. @ 2 weeks aroma had changed over to ripe banana. Fermentation stayed at 66-67* for peak. Raised temp to 68 to finish it out.
Finishing: kegged & on tap at 3.0 volumes. Only kegged 4.75 gal, was careful to leave any trub and a layer of thick/hazy beer behind.
Flavor: First pulls were very chunky and yeasty. Sample the other night, 18 days after kegging: Holy banana bread! Dense head that tastes like sweet banana bread batter. Definitely too sweet, this could be from carapils addition, cutting my acid malt, or cutting out all acid & protein rests to decrease precursors to the sulphur compounds. Will see how this ages. Clove very faint. Banana dominates.
If you're actually only pitching 1 smack pack for a 5 gallon batch that is probably the reason for your excess sulphur. You're pitching roughly 1/2 (assuming a very fresh pack) of the recommended amount of yeast.

EDIT: Also, if you're pitching cold then the proper pitching rate is even more important.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:10 PM   #7
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This is my standard hefe profile:

60% Wyermann Wheat malt
40% Pilsner (usually Best Malz)
OG: 1.053
FG: 1.012

1oz Hallertau @ 90min (~10IBU)

Single Infusion Mash @ 156*F. I know this is unusual for the "perfect hefe," and I could probably have some sort of impovement using a step mash, but at the moment I'm good with my results.

White Labs WLP380 Hefe IV
I like this yeast much more than the WLP300/3068 strain. Over-the-top banana is a huge turn-off for me with a lot of homebrew hefes, and finding a more balanced strain was key. This is comparatively clean for a hefe yeast, but still gives some nice clove notes.

Aerate with pure O2 for 60 seconds.
Pitch at the standard Mr Malty rate.
Ferment @ 65*F

This gives me a hefe that is right down the middle in almost every aspect. Medium-light body, moderate clove/banana, some bready character, and super easy drinking.

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Old 03-31-2012, 12:07 AM   #8
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I haven't tried it yet, but WPL380hefeIV is supposed to be more "clovey" I have a tube in the fridge for the next batch

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Old 04-01-2012, 07:56 PM   #9
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Here they are. Getting ready to chill the wort. I hope this comes out well. I would really like to know what yeast I like!

Edit: update 4/2: pitched at 5 pm yesterday pitching temp was 62*. It was hard to pour out 1/2 a tube... I adjusted for viability based on manufacture dates. The WLP 380 was 2 1/2 months old, so I pitched the whole tube.

Checked on them this morning. All smell pleasantly phenolic, with 380 being the strongest. WLP 300 is the most subdued, could smell some eaters in there too. The 351 and kellerweis have the biggest start on their krausen; fluffy, white and about 3/4 in high already.

image-3766369536.jpg  
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:56 PM   #10
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Pic of the four test batches. Swamp cooler temp is at 59*. Infrared measures at 59.9-60.2 in all fermenters... Except WLP 300, that's about .5 degree higher.

The covers are all very loose. Screwed on with only 1 thread. That makes this a modified open fermentation.

image-3288595409.jpg  
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