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Old 01-25-2013, 05:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by MachineShopBrewing View Post
Huh?

ISo, saying that homebrewers are brewing 95%+ quality beers, while your average craft brewer is brewing 80% quality beers is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. That's like saying some Joe Schmoe who plays hardcore paintball on the weekends and reads "Soldier of Fortune" magazine could take out a trained Navy Seal. It is completely asinine.
You missed my point. A commercial enterprise desires customers, not a good product. It gets customers by making a product that is good enough to get them. It appeals to as large a base as possible with other constraints (cost being the largest).

The homebrew by contrast has a very small base, usually 1 person (himself) although possibly larger (say up to 10 people - friends, BCJP judges, etc). So his goal is to make the bear that is 'best' for those people. So what is 95% appealing to me will be only about 25% to you. - I know I left that bit out last time, I appologize.

If I'm not making a beer that is a 95% for me, then I should give up and drink commercial. I don't expect that beer to be 95% for everybody, and frankly for the most part don't care because I made it for me, not for everybody. Remember, taste is highly personal.

The commercial brewer as he gets a beer that some think is better and better will end up alienating more or his customers. So while some think it is hitting a 90% perfect, others will think it has dropped to about 50%.

My main point was that again, a beer a homebrewer makes should be one that is to him almost perfect and over the years he will get better and better at making a beer he likes. A commercial brewer is interested in creating a beer today that tastes exactly like yesterdays beer so his customers aren't surprised. As a result, his beer on the perfection scale will suffer for all, but be satisfactory for more.

If you beleive commerical beers are better than what you make, why would you make your own?
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:42 PM   #22
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You are saying that you are making beer you like to drink? That is fine. Taste is subjective.

You are making it sound however, that homebrew is better quality than commercial brew because they don't care about quality, only customers. Quality is an objective measure. That is completely different than whether or not you prefer the flavor. Commercial brewers care #1 about the quality of their beer. Without quality, they will have no customers. Any commercial brewer worth his or her salt could craft a beer that would be better quality than 95% of homebrew. Whether or not you like the flavor of it would be up to you.

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If you beleive commerical beers are better than what you make, why would you make your own?
I do believe commercial brew is better for the most part. Do you think a famous chef or baker could make a better plate of food or baked good better than you can at home? Of course they can. Does that stop you from cooking and baking? Nope. It's fun, that's why we do it. Every now and then we make something that rivals some of the better commercial beer we have had. When that happens, it is a special moment. And then, sometimes you just go out to eat from that famous chef....
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:57 PM   #23
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Piratwolf

thanks for the info.

I have been in BARF for 3 years now,,, but I can never make the dang meetings.....
I want to get in there I KNOW there is a lot of knowledge.....

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Old 01-26-2013, 01:41 PM   #24
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Just my 2 pennies here and since I am hung over take em or leave em

I agree that the big breweries are absolutely the best at what they do. I can go to TX and have a beer and it will taste exactly as the beer here in my home town. And I do not believe that as a home brewer I can replicate in either the cost or speed of manufacture that the big boys get with a quality beer like they produce.

I also believe that they produce the cheapest beer possible with the fastest turn around time that will appeal to the most people. Could they change their brewing and make a better quality beer? I think so but it would not make sense for them to do so because it would cost more money. They have to walk a fine line between product and cost of product when deciding quality.

All of the above of course does not address the effectiveness of leaving the beer on yeast for longer. I have read a few books and I believe that while the yeasts work may be done good enough for a commercial brewery there is a lot to be gained leaving the beer alone in a secondary to clarify simply because most home brewers do not have the ability to cold crash or filter the beer.

I tend to bottle at about 3 weeks and then after the beer is carbed I will cellar it at 40 degrees until I drink it. I also secondary after a week so I can harvest the yeast and put them to sleep in the fridge sooner. Since I am pretty much the only fool dumb enough to drink my beer I am going to have to say I get rave reviews for it

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Old 01-26-2013, 06:48 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by MachineShopBrewing View Post
You are saying that you are making beer you like to drink? That is fine. Taste is subjective.

You are making it sound however, that homebrew is better quality than commercial brew .
Better to that specific home brewer. Because as you said taste is subjective, as is quality.

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Originally Posted by MachineShopBrewing View Post
I do believe commercial brew is better for the most part. Do you think a famous chef or baker could make a better plate of food or baked good better than you can at home? Of course they can. Does that stop you from cooking and baking? Nope. It's fun, that's why we do it. Every now and then we make something that rivals some of the better commercial beer we have had. When that happens, it is a special moment. And then, sometimes you just go out to eat from that famous chef....

That is a false analogy. Beer is a mass produced product. Like food from McDonalds or even somewhere more upscale like Panera or Olive garden. And anyone is business knows his first goal is to make a profit. He cares about quality (subjective) and having a consistant flavor (in the case of beer). If Bud suddenly started produce a Lager kept the same label and that many craft drinkers thought was an improved flavor, they'd lose customers.

Even DogFish ale (or perhaps especially they and other Craft brewers) care only about attracting customers, which may mean decreasing the intensity of flavor so that non craft drinkers will be attracted to it.

Back to your comparision, you are taking an artist who makes single master peices and saying I can't paint as well, that is true. But if I want an original painting, I can afford to make one of my own. If I want a reproduction, I can afford one of those.
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:36 PM   #26
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[/QUOTE]So, saying that homebrewers are brewing 95%+ quality beers, while your average craft brewer is brewing 80% quality beers is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. That's like saying some Joe Schmoe who plays hardcore paintball on the weekends and reads "Soldier of Fortune" magazine could take out a trained Navy Seal. It is completely asinine.[/QUOTE]

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Old 01-27-2013, 02:38 PM   #27
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So, saying that homebrewers are brewing 95%+ quality beers, while your average craft brewer is brewing 80% quality beers is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. That's like saying some Joe Schmoe who plays hardcore paintball on the weekends and reads "Soldier of Fortune" magazine could take out a trained Navy Seal. It is completely asinine.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:27 PM   #28
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I've never (again: never) had beer in a fermentation vessel for longer than 10-14 days and I've never had any off flavors in my beer. As said, aging is different than conditioning/aging. Bulk conditioning/aging can be done in the keg.

If you want to turn your beer around under the "mandatory 6 month" timeline sometimes suggested on the forums, read this thread: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/aging-beer-facts-myths-discussion-84005/

My general philosophy is that, with a few exceptions (necessity: i.e. lambics and sours, huge OG beers a la barleywine) more aging will not turn mediocre beer into great beer. There's a balance to be struck between the beneficial effects of conditioning and the time it takes to enjoy your product.

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Old 01-27-2013, 07:27 PM   #29
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Even DogFish ale (or perhaps especially they and other Craft brewers) care only about attracting customers, which may mean decreasing the intensity of flavor so that non craft drinkers will be attracted to it.
If you really believe this, then I'm sorry, you need to get out more and talk to some brewers and brewery owners. You really don't know what you are talking about.

Check out this thread http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/sam-calagiones-rant-293732/index24.html

And the rant Sam(Dogfish Head owner and founder) had a while back-

Quote:
"It’s pretty depressing to frequently visit this site (He's talking about BA) and see the most negative threads among the most popular. This didn’t happen much ten years ago when craft beer had something like a 3 percent market share. Flash forward to today, and true indie craft beer now has a still-tiny but growing marketshare of just over 5 percent. Yet so many folks that post here still spend their time knocking down breweries that dare to grow. It’s like that old joke: “Nobody eats at that restaurant anymore, it’s too crowded.” Except the “restaurants” that people **** on here aren’t exactly juggernauts. In fact, aside from Boston Beer, none of them have anything even close to half of one percent marketshare. The more that retailers, distributors, and large industrial brewers consolidate the more fragile the current growth momentum of the craft segment becomes. The more often the Beer Advocate community becomes a soap box for outing breweries for daring to grow beyond its insider ranks the more it will be marginalized in the movement to support, promote, and protect independent ,American craft breweries.

It’s interesting how many posts that refer to Dogfish being over-rated include a caveat like “except for Palo…except for Immort…etc.” We all have different palettes which is why it’s a great thing that there are so many different beers. At Dogfish we’ve been focused on making “weird” beers since we opened and have taken our lumps for being stylistically indifferent since day one. I bet a lot of folks agree that beers like Punkin Ale (since 1995) , Immort Ale (wood aged smoked beer) since 1995, Chicory Stout (coffee stout) since 1995 , Raison D’être (Belgian brown) since 1996, , Indian Brown Ale (dark IPA) since 1997, and 90 Minute (DIPA) since 2000 don’t seem very weird anymore. That’s in large part because so many people who have been part of this community over the years championed them and helped us put them on the map.These beers, and all of our more recent releases like Palo Santo, Burton Baton, Bitches Brew continue to grow every year. We could have taken the easy way out and just sold the bejeezus out of 60 Minute to grow but we like to experiment and create and follow our own muse. Obviously there is an audience that appreciates this as we continue to grow. We put no more “hype” or “expert marketing” behind our best selling beers than we do our occasionals. We only advertise in a few beer magazines and my wife Mariah oversees all of our twitter/Facebook/dogfish.com stuff. We have mostly grown by just sharing our beer with people who are into it (at our pub, great beer bars, beer dinners, and fests) and let them decide for themselves if they like it. If they do we hope they tell their friends about. We hope a bunch of you that are going to EBF will stop by our booth and try some of the very unique new beers we are proudly bringing to market like Tweason’ale (a champagne-esque, gluten-free beer fermented with buckwheat honey and strawberries) and Noble Rot (a sort of saison brewed with Botrytis-infected Viognier Grape must). One of these beers is on the sweeter side and one is more sour. Knowing each of your palettes is unique you will probably prefer one over the other. That doesn’t mean the one you didn’t prefer sucked. And the breweries you don’t prefer but are growing don’t suck either. Respect Beer. The below was my favorite post thus far.

This thread is hilarious. Seriously, Bells, Founders, FFF, Surly, RR, DFH, Bruery, Avery, Cigar City, Mikkeller are all overrated? Since I’m from Ohio, I’ll pile on and add Great Lakes, Hoppin Frog, and Brew Kettle to the list. Your welcome.

Hopefully soon we will have every craft brewery in the US on the list."

I don't mean to rehash the Sam rant thread, but if you really think that all breweries care about is attracting more customers by dumbing down their beers and not caring about quality(and you are wrong here too, quality is objective, not subjective) , then you are wrong and need to do a little more research before you form opinions.


And to expand on quality being objective and not subjective-

Just because you may or may not like the flavor of a beer due to a certain ingredient or yeast, or style, doesn't mean that the beer has poor quality. Beer quality can be quantified by measurement. Beer quality is talking about having a good brewing process, managing a proper fermentation to make a clean beer, making sure to have a high quality product going into the package, with low DO and no fermentation off flavors.

Sure, a beer of poor quality will also have bad flavor usually. But, that does not necessarily mean a beer of poor flavor(subjective to your taste) is of poor quality. You may like more caramel malt in your pale ale than I do, but you can still make a quality beer both ways. You may like one, and I may like the other. But, they are both quality beers.
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:29 PM   #30
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My general philosophy is that, with a few exceptions (necessity: i.e. lambics and sours, huge OG beers a la barleywine) more aging will not turn mediocre beer into great beer. There's a balance to be struck between the beneficial effects of conditioning and the time it takes to enjoy your product.
I think Kris England said it best-

(paraphrasing)

Quote:
Sure, off flavors will smooth out over time. So do mountains. Make a clean beer to start.
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