New Giveaway - Wort Monster Conical Fermenter!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Fermentation & Yeast > Couple of questions




Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-24-2013, 07:50 PM   #11
ACbrewer
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 1,516
Liked 86 Times on 79 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

From what I have read on autolysis, it takes longer than months to occur in a sealed beer container with modern yeasts, and it was more a problem 15+ years ago. This is why I fear racking a beer and sanitation more than autolysis. I've gone 8 weeks in a primary bucket before bottling and had no problems. (and none with carbonation either)



__________________
ACbrewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-24-2013, 09:56 PM   #12
MachineShopBrewing
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montrose, MN
Posts: 1,053
Liked 66 Times on 53 Posts
Likes Given: 38

Default

Quote:
I'm not going to argue with you anymore about this so we'll just agree to disagree. It is obvious you are satisfied with your beers and have not strayed from your typical way of doing things for quite some time. That is fine, but I am not satisfied with mediocrity or thinking I've learned all there is to learn on a particular topic. My practices and brewing knowledge evolves.
I hardly do things the way I do because I am satisfied with mediocrity. I do things the way I do because I have talked to head brewers and master brewers from many small and large breweries to formulate the best process for making the best quality beer. I think you should incorporate a discussion with someone who actually brews at a high level professionally into your learning regimen instead of just reading the homebrew dogma that is thrown around this forum on a daily basis. These people are the best at what they do and have risen through the ranks in a dog-eat-dog business. I take their knowledge and advice over what someone on some forum has to say.

All that said, I personally don't care what someone else's process is. If you feel that 3-4 weeks is what works best for you, then rock on. If you are bottling and don't want a bunch of sediment in your bottles, then sure, 3-4 weeks sitting in the fermentor would certainly help that. I tend to keg and fine my beers. I usually rack when I am at terminal gravity +2-3 days. This cycle is typically 10-14 days depending on yeast strain.


Quote:
To use an analogy, every time you go to McDonalds, you know exactly what a big mac is. Everytime you purchase a beer of style X, you expect to get that flavor. Comerical brewers go for what I call an 80% beer - meaning most will think it is drinkable, although not the best, but drinkable and are willing to buy it.

As home brewers, we brew for 1 (or maybe a few) and go for 95%+ beer, meaning the best we can make of that style as suited to our palette. We often do things to chase that last few % points. Be it full boils, dry hopping, long aging etc. And it suit each of us according to his or her taste. And frankly the only mechanism that seems to be important time.
Huh?

I am not sure what kind of breweries you have near you, but a brewery that puts out an 80% beer is not going to be around very long. Every professional brewer/brewery I have ever talked to is focused #1 on the quality of the beer.

As far as homebrew, 95% of homebrew is no where near the quality of most commercial beers. Commercial beer is made by professionals who brew beer every day for a living. These brewers are highly trained(most of them university trained with 4-6 year degrees on top of their brewing education) and stay up on the latest research, processes and equipment. Some of them have many, many years of experience making beer every day. Their livelihoods and family's future depend on them performing their job to the best of their ability. These brewers are doing what they love, and care a great deal about the quality of the beer they make. Millions of dollars are invested and on the line based on the quality of their beers. Commercial beer is made with the latest and best equipment that is specifically designed to brew beer. They have learned for years/decades with their house yeasts on how to handle them for optimum flavor and quality. Their yeast is always at the peak of health when going into a fermentation because they are always brewing and re pitching yeast. They actually do cell counts and tests to make sure their yeast is clean and healthy before committing it to a fermentation. These breweries have labs and quality control with actual scientific instruments and trained chemists to measure different compounds in their finished beer such as Dissolved oxygen, diacetyl, acetaldhyde, etc... All in the name of quality.

Now, contrast that with your average homebrewer. This person brews once a month, maybe. Reads most of their information they know from brewing forums and a few homebrew books/magazines that cater to the beginner brewer with dumbed down and simple information for the most people to comprehend. The average homebrewer is not trained in a hard science such as chemistry or microbiology as a pro brewer would be. The average homebrewer brews and ferments in re purposed items such as old beer kegs and plastic buckets. Few even have decent fermentation temperature control. Fewer are using anywhere near the right amount/healthy yeast on average as pros do. <1% have any kind of analytic equipment to do cell counts and vitality/viability tests. <1% could actually produce the same level of quality in the same beer twice in a row, let alone over and over like a pro brewer has to.


So, saying that homebrewers are brewing 95%+ quality beers, while your average craft brewer is brewing 80% quality beers is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. That's like saying some Joe Schmoe who plays hardcore paintball on the weekends and reads "Soldier of Fortune" magazine could take out a trained Navy Seal. It is completely asinine.


__________________
MachineShopBrewing is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-24-2013, 11:12 PM   #13
Piratwolf
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Va Beach, VA
Posts: 2,103
Liked 124 Times on 117 Posts
Likes Given: 82

Default

I think there's an issue of empiricism here, which of course is colored by personal preferences.

Both my personal, empirical experiences and the few BJCP contests I've entered tell me that 14-28 days grain-to-glass CAN produce excellent beers. The thing is, you have to center your process around that goal. Nail your mash regimen, temps, and water chemistry. Pitch big, healthy yeast starters, work your ferment temps, cold crash, etc.

If you can't or won't do these things, then I think you have to arrange your process according to more "traditional" Homebrew processes.

Not sure whether one is better than the other.

__________________
Piratwolf: "I've heard that Belgian Blondes can be "panty droppers" but they're not particularly high IBU nor cheap."

jmendez29: Haha! I get it! :ban:
Wait. You're not talking about beer, right?
You're talking about beer. That could have been a whole lot more fun.
Piratwolf is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-25-2013, 12:50 AM   #14
MachineShopBrewing
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montrose, MN
Posts: 1,053
Liked 66 Times on 53 Posts
Likes Given: 38

Default

Quote:
Both my personal, empirical experiences and the few BJCP contests I've entered tell me that 14-28 days grain-to-glass CAN produce excellent beers. The thing is, you have to center your process around that goal. Nail your mash regimen, temps, and water chemistry. Pitch big, healthy yeast starters, work your ferment temps, cold crash, etc.
Right. Perfect your process and you don't need to let things sit to "condition".

Pretty much what I have been saying.
__________________
MachineShopBrewing is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-25-2013, 01:58 AM   #15
bobbrews
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sierra, Nevada
Posts: 3,488
Liked 273 Times on 235 Posts
Likes Given: 18

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineShopBrewing View Post
I hardly do things the way I do because I am satisfied with mediocrity. I do things the way I do because I have talked to head brewers and master brewers from many small and large breweries to formulate the best process for making the best quality beer. I think you should incorporate a discussion with someone who actually brews at a high level professionally into your learning regimen instead of just reading the homebrew dogma that is thrown around this forum on a daily basis. These people are the best at what they do and have risen through the ranks in a dog-eat-dog business.
No one is throwing around what they have heard other than you. Your whole idealogy behind brewing better seems to be centered around what others think and what others have told you versus trials of actual experimentation and learning experiences. Listening to 10 minutes of what a doctor tells you about how you could improve your health does not make you an expert. So I am not going to try to convince someone who is so ignorant in their current practices that they might possibly be in denial about being wrong, or perhaps they are simply limiting themselves by not exploring all of their options. You still haven't admitted that you have ever even tried 4-5 weeks total fermentation and conditioning time as opposed to your typical 12-14 days of grain to glass. Sorry, but I don't put any faith in someone who doesn't see both sides of the coin and is adamant on what someone "told" them with absolutely no interest in experimentation or learning things for themselves. You will never grow that way. Your beers today will still be the same as they will 20 years from now... with no improvement. So good luck with that. I am done here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineShopBrewing View Post
I take their knowledge and advice over what someone on some forum has to say.
P.S. - You are someone on this forum who is spewing brewing dogma you have heard elsewhere.
__________________
bobbrews is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-25-2013, 02:19 AM   #16
jakehale
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 112
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Uh,,,,, ok,,, thanks folks.....

__________________
I'm Pretty good at drinking beer...
Brewing beer, is still in work.
jakehale is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-25-2013, 02:40 AM   #17
bobbrews
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sierra, Nevada
Posts: 3,488
Liked 273 Times on 235 Posts
Likes Given: 18

Default

Sensitive topic you raised (for some people). Hope you learned a little bit at least!

__________________
bobbrews is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-25-2013, 05:15 AM   #18
mkeckjr
Beer Enthusiast
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 47
Liked 5 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
I am done here.
Isn't this the second time on this one thread you've claimed to be done arguing? Bob, while you have cited a reference for your side of this argument, it is far from being a staple of the literature. At reasonable room temperatures, yeast will clean up off flavors in a couple of days in most cases, diacetyl rest being the canonical example.

I indeed have also experimented with this exact phenomenon, though I find IPA one of the worst styles to experiment in this manner with, as hop flavor and aroma can easily mask subtle yeast off-flavors. However, I've experimented extensively with Vienna lager and Scottish ale, both malt driven beers with yeast that ferment relatively slow that can be affected by yeast by-products like diacetyl, and I believe that off-flavors tend to be cleaned up in the normal final 2-3 days of active fermentation, not 3-4 weeks.

Hope your beer continues to evolve. Will you contradict yourself again and respond to this? Very clever.
__________________
mkeckjr is offline
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-25-2013, 10:20 AM   #19
Piratwolf
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Va Beach, VA
Posts: 2,103
Liked 124 Times on 117 Posts
Likes Given: 82

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakehale
Starters:

I just started making starters because i am hearing that it does good things. I got the general measurments of (dont quote me, i dont have my cheat sheet in front of me) of 100 grams of DME to 1 Ltr water. Now i have only done 1 ltr startes. if i do a 2 ltr starter, do i have to put two vials of yeast in there?

thanks folks
jake
Jake, I missed the two vials part of your question. The real answer is that it depends on how many yeast cells you need.

There seem to be two approaches: waking the yeast up, or increasing the cell count. If your beer's OG is less than about 1.050-1.060, one yeast vial/smack pack is usually sufficient. In those cases, I usually do a 500ml starter about 24-36 hours ahead of pitching time so that my yeast go into the wort already chomping away. If you make a bigger beer, you need more cells. In that case, either pitch 2 (or more--YeastCalc.com or mrmalty.com both provide reasonable calculators) in the way described above, or step up your starter sizes over a week or two ahead of time. For example, start with 500ml and let it ferment out, decant the beer, add 1L of fresh wort, let it ferment out, decant beer, add 2L of wort, ferment, etc. The websites above can give you specifics on stepped starters.

As an aside, you may wish to check out yeast washing so you can re-use your yeast from a beer you've made. Saves a LOT of money over time, and it means you almost always have enough yeast. It's essentially using a 5gal starter!

Hope this is useful.

EDIT: I thought your name looked familiar. You might post this on the BARF page or bring it up at the next meeting--Joey & Mike M. Are both experts at making starters!

Drew
__________________
Piratwolf: "I've heard that Belgian Blondes can be "panty droppers" but they're not particularly high IBU nor cheap."

jmendez29: Haha! I get it! :ban:
Wait. You're not talking about beer, right?
You're talking about beer. That could have been a whole lot more fun.
Piratwolf is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-25-2013, 02:14 PM   #20
MachineShopBrewing
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montrose, MN
Posts: 1,053
Liked 66 Times on 53 Posts
Likes Given: 38

Default

Quote:
You still haven't admitted that you have ever even tried 4-5 weeks total fermentation and conditioning time as opposed to your typical 12-14 days of grain to glass.
I never said I don't condition my beer. What I said was you are confusing conditioning with fermentation(which is a typical misconception on these forums). Fermentation is done within 14 days normally. How long you condition the beer is up to you, but it is not a fermentation/yeast function.

Quote:
There are some people on this forum who confuse aging reactions with fermentation reactions and think that because their RIS tasted better after 6 months that it was because of the yeast.
I also leave my beer sit for a week or two after fermentation is done to let the flavors meld, yeast to drop brite, and excess protein/polyphenol complexes to fall out of solution. But this is done at cold temps in a keg. It is not a yeast function. You can speed up this process by using gelatin or polyclar if you want to also.


__________________
MachineShopBrewing is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Couple questions elementfiftyfour Cider Forum 0 01-02-2012 06:03 PM
A couple DIY questions LarryC General Beer Discussion 11 12-11-2010 09:44 PM
Couple questions after first AG cwilliams108 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 3 05-29-2010 03:59 AM
A couple questions from the new guy. PedalFast Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 12 10-22-2009 02:31 AM
Couple of questions. Omegaman13 Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 3 04-28-2008 07:35 PM