Cold-crash between primary and secondary?

So I just brewed a raspberry wheat beer last night. It calls for a secondary fermentation in which some raspberry extract will be added. I have the luxury of cold crashing and typically do. However, this is the first time I'm going to rack into a secondary. Should I cold crash the primary to get as much to settle out as I can before racking to the secondary? Will these temp fluctuations be counter-productive?

I would usually cold crash, but not with a wheat. A little haze is style correct

Yeah I wouldn't crash going into secondary with a wheat. Pull a sample after it's been in secondary before you rack to bottling or keg and see how you like the clarity. If it's TOO cloudy, you can crash it before bottling/kegging.

If you are kegging, just crash in the keg. You'll get all the larger particles out in the first pint or so and you'll save time not crashing the secondary.

If you are bottling, cold crash the secondary before bottling.

The only time I 'double crash' (primary and secondary) is when I'm looking for brilliant crystal clarity (competition entries, wedding beers, etc)

Sounds like a plan. Just pitched last night so probably give her 10 days or so in primary, then throw it in the secondary for 3 weeks. Everything gets kegged, no bottles for this guy.

So judging by your responses, I would guess you guys secondary 100% of the time? I have made 6 batches without using a secondary. This is my 7th brew, but first time using a secondary.

907_fellow said:

So judging by your responses, I would guess you guys secondary 100% of the time? I have made 6 batches without using a secondary. This is my 7th brew, but first time using a secondary.

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Nope. I rarely secondary, actually. If I lager a beer or want to rack onto fruit or something odd, I will secondary...but otherwise I dry-hop in primary or long-primary until kegging time.

I usually cold crash from primary to serving keg...No secondary unless planning on leaving in fermentor for more than 6 months.

So another question... Like I said, I have so far just used a primary. The ipa I have in one right now is about 5 weeks old. How big of a deal is it to be sitting on all that trub? I kno the yeast will start to give off non-desirable flavors at some point but should I try to figure out a way to filter the trub out when racking from the kettle to the primary in the future? Does the trub not really matter much for taste?

907_fellow said:

So another question... Like I said, I have so far just used a primary. The ipa I have in one right now is about 5 weeks old. How big of a deal is it to be sitting on all that trub? I kno the yeast will start to give off non-desirable flavors at some point but should I try to figure out a way to filter the trub out when racking from the kettle to the primary in the future? Does the trub not really matter much for taste?

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You're about to get a dozen different responses but.....

I did a very basic test months ago -- I made a 5 gallon batch and split it before fermentation. One batch was unfiltered, the other batch was run through an extremely fine mesh bag.

Four months later -- both batches tasted exactly the same.

Now I currently try to minimize trub but not because of flavor, but I want as much headspace as possible. If I'm entering it in a competition where the batch is supposed to be extremely or brilliantly clear, I'll also filter. But again, not for flavor.

You'll probably hear things about tannins, hops breaking down, or yeast autolysis, but I've never had an issue and I doubt I ever will.

907_fellow said:

So another question... Like I said, I have so far just used a primary. The ipa I have in one right now is about 5 weeks old. How big of a deal is it to be sitting on all that trub? I kno the yeast will start to give off non-desirable flavors at some point but should I try to figure out a way to filter the trub out when racking from the kettle to the primary in the future? Does the trub not really matter much for taste?

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I would only worry about it after a very long aging period, say months and months on end. Also, if you harvest your yeast you are holding them hostage on a very long age in primary. Typically my beers are in primary from 1-2 weeks depending on the complexity and style of the beer, but I've gone a month with no ill effects.

I'm still green to the brewing scene so harvesting/washing yeast is the least of my concerns right now. Trying to get set up to start Doing a yeast starter at the moment. I was just curious If the trub had ill effects on taste. I have no problem with clarify between adding whirloc and cold crashing.

907_fellow said:

I'm still green to the brewing scene so harvesting/washing yeast is the least of my concerns right now. Trying to get set up to start Doing a yeast starter at the moment. I was just curious If the trub had ill effects on taste. I have no problem with clarify between adding whirloc and cold crashing.

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Get some mason jars, soak them in star-san like you do anything else (and their lids). Get say the pint size (or 8oz is fine) and after you rack off of primary, slosh the remaining beer around on the yeast cake until you get some off-white liquid running around, then pour that into sanitized mason jars, seal, throw in fridge. You've harvested yeast.

Now, later, when you want to use that yeast, go to http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html and figure out how many ML of your yeast you need for the next batch, often times without a starter necessary.

Sweet man you make it seem so simple haha. How long can it keep in the fridge? Will the yeast in using in this ipa be good for say a Belgian white I'm about to brew?

907_fellow said:

Sweet man you make it seem so simple haha. How long can it keep in the fridge? Will the yeast in using in this ipa be good for say a Belgian white I'm about to brew?

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First, You can keep it for up to a year (some have) but make sure you enter the harvest date into Mr. Malty because the viability (number of living cells) goes down with time, so you'd probably just have to make a starter, or larger starter. If it's only been a few weeks in the fridge, I check Mr. Malty and often times it only calls for 100ML of thick slurry for the harvest date I input.

As far as the yeast for the IPA being good for a Belgian white...only if it's a belgian yeast, which I'm guessing it's not. Most belgian beers are belgian because they use belgian yeast...belgian (I think I broke a record for using the word "belgian")

Haha ya you might have broke that record. So basically if your harvesting yeast, it would be wise to re-use that yeast in the same or similar beer. I guess that is kinda common sense.

Anyone make 10 gallon batches? I kno your gonna say look at mrmalty for starter sizes, but just in general how big of a starter is needed to pitch a 1.065-ish beer in a 10 gallon size? I'm looking at ordering a stir plate and flask and what not so I would like to be able to accommodate my equipment to make a large enough starter for 10 gallons.

907_fellow said:

Haha ya you might have broke that record. So basically if your harvesting yeast, it would be wise to re-use that yeast in the same or similar beer. I guess that is kinda common sense.

Anyone make 10 gallon batches? I kno your gonna say look at mrmalty for starter sizes, but just in general how big of a starter is needed to pitch a 1.065-ish beer in a 10 gallon size? I'm looking at ordering a stir plate and flask and what not so I would like to be able to accommodate my equipment to make a large enough starter for 10 gallons.

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I harvested US-05 (WLP001, WY1056, same basic strain) for quite a while as mostly I was making Pales, IPA's, ESB's (even this yeast works fine for this style), etc. These beers are about the malt and/or hops, not as much about the yeast, so anything remotely clean works.

Belgians are an example of a beer that has a yeast characteristic in the final flavor, usually a clove/spice and/or plum/dark-fruit quality. You'd have to manufacture those flavors with actual spices and secondarying on fruit in order to get them otherwise...and it wouldn't be the same.

I'd get a 3L flask if you only get one. Get a stir-plate, which is on my list. If you're using fresh yeast (vials or packs) you'll need to make a starter, probably one starter with dry yeast and with liquid you'd need to step it up (make a starter, cold-crash it, pour off clear liquid, then add more wort to make another larger starter with the yeast.) DO check Yeastcalc for stepped up starters.

With cake, mrmalty will tell you how many ML of thick yeast slurry you need, likely 200-300ML for a 10g batch of cake harvested within the last month or so. These are all reasonable guesses only.

You might want to check out the thread I made here before using that extract. Good luck!

For instance, MrMalty says you need 3 vials for that 10g 1.065 batch, then make a starter from that of size 5.7L. You probably can't even fit a 5L flask in your fridge to crash it/store it. It also says 2 packs of 11.5g dry yeast if you direct pitch.

If you don't have cake, I'd take 1 vial of liquid and make a 1L of wort for a starter, cold-crash it after a few days, then make 2L of starter wort and add it to the yeast after pouring off the clear liquid from the first starter. That would get you to where you need to be, on a stir-plate in both cases, in about a week.

for dry, You could just make a 3L starter and be done in a few days, on the stir plate of course.

I've got a massive keezer (19.7 cf) so cold crashing anything isn't an issue. But ****, 5.7 L? That's massive. Could I make 3L starter, put it in the fridge, then make another 3L starter the next day, and pitch both of brew day? Is it okay to let one sit for a few days before pitching? I kno the cell count will drop a bit in a few days but that's why I would make two 3L starters to compensate for that loss.

907_fellow said:

I've got a massive keezer (19.7 cf) so cold crashing anything isn't an issue. But ****, 5.7 L? That's massive. Could I make 3L starter, put it in the fridge, then make another 3L starter the next day, and pitch both of brew day? Is it okay to let one sit for a few days before pitching? I kno the cell count will drop a bit in a few days but that's why I would make two 3L starters to compensate for that loss.

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Like I said above, yeastcalc will show you how to step up starters. Look at the cell count it recommends for the OG and batch size you're making, then input your yeast info (dry yeast is about 230billion cells, liquid is ~100b). The first starter you set up the oxygenation method and size you'd like to make, it will tell you how many cells you'll end up with. If it's not enough for the original cell count prescribed, add another starter below the first one and play with the size until it comes out to as many or slightly more than you need. My example above was done on yeastcalc and is relevant for your batch, based on the info you gave, and it only uses one batch of yeast.

if you're short on time, sure, you can make two starters from two vials and do it that way...just costing yourself another $8 or whatever you pay for vials.

Thanks for your patience. Feel like I'm beating a dead horse haha. Just trying to get a grasp on this.

Anyone have the Black MAXX Stir Plate? Seems badass.