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Old 12-22-2010, 02:44 AM   #1
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Default Banana vs Cloves

Need some expert input here. I've understood that if you want a banana flavour to dominate your Hefeweizen's that you should ferment at the lower end of the temp range, maybe 64-65F and if you prefer cloves then ferment at 68-70F. I read something recently that stated the opposite. Need input.
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Old 12-22-2010, 02:48 AM   #2
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earthy flavors (like cloves) are typically at the lower end of the temp spectrum and fruity (like banana) at the higher end



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Old 12-22-2010, 03:11 AM   #3
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Not an expert, but IM(noob)O...

It depends some what on the strain too, right?

I used Fermentis wb06 in a wheat, and I bumped my ambient to 66*F from 62*F after reading the same thing.

I got PLENTY of banana
So much that after 3 1/2 weeks in primary, I racked to secondary for another 3 weeks. They've been bottled for about 3 weeks and there's still some , but it's way more balanced. Definitely drinkable. SWMBO likes it.

YMMV

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Old 12-22-2010, 03:11 AM   #4
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earthy flavors (like cloves) are typically at the lower end of the temp spectrum and fruity (like banana) at the higher end
+1
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Old 12-22-2010, 07:37 AM   #5
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Underpitching + high fermentation temperature -> more bananas.
Overpitching + long (~60 mins) ferulic acid rest at 105F -> more clove.

That's how i see it in my weissbiers.

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Old 12-22-2010, 09:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meadowstream View Post
earthy flavors (like cloves) are typically at the lower end of the temp spectrum and fruity (like banana) at the higher end

yup...~70+ = banana republic
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Old 12-22-2010, 01:39 PM   #7
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Overpitching + long (~60 mins) ferulic acid rest at 105F -> more clove.
That was also backed up in the Jan Feb 2011, Vol. 17, No. 1, Page 21, BYO Style Profile by JZ.

In particular it states: "Mashing at 110 degrees F aid in the hydrolysis of ferulic acid. The yeast use ferulic acid to produce 4-vinyl guaiacol, which is the phenolic (clove-like) flavor compound that is so important in this style..."

To answer the OP, I've only gotten bannana flavors out of Wyeast 3068 when going above 68 degrees F. Due to my set up, I haven't been able to go below that. For my next hefe, (Feb) I'll be doing the 110F reset to get the ferulic acid and see if that helps balance the flavors. I've also been meaning to try out WLP 300 and 380, which I've heard each strain gives a specific flavor.
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Old 12-22-2010, 02:18 PM   #8
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WLP300 == WY3068, exactly the same strain.

The problem with ferulic acid rest is that the wort has to pass the temperatures of protein rest. You have to heat really quickly to not kill too much proteins that are vital to head formation & retention.

Once i got an advice to mash wheat malt separately (for really long time, even 60 mins) at 105F, heat the wort to the temperature of maltose rest, then add barley malt and continue normally.

Even being so smart and educated, i still cann't get proper balance between clove and banana in my weissbiers.

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Old 12-22-2010, 06:50 PM   #9
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WLP300 @ 70F is a Banana Bomb! Much lower than that and you've got cloves.

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Old 12-22-2010, 07:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zgoda View Post
WLP300 == WY3068, exactly the same strain.

The problem with ferulic acid rest is that the wort has to pass the temperatures of protein rest. You have to heat really quickly to not kill too much proteins that are vital to head formation & retention.

Once i got an advice to mash wheat malt separately (for really long time, even 60 mins) at 105F, heat the wort to the temperature of maltose rest, then add barley malt and continue normally.

Even being so smart and educated, i still cann't get proper balance between clove and banana in my weissbiers.
I never thought about that for the ferulic rest. Will have to give both methods a shot.


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