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Old 04-07-2011, 08:42 PM   #101
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If starvation cannot be applied to the homebrew situation because there is always residual sugar, why the gravity reaches a point of maximum attenuation? If there was significant metabolic activity in the yeast after fermentation was completed fueled by these presumed residual sugars, one would expect the SG to move at least 1 fraction of degree Plato, which can detected by my refractometer but it does not happen! 4-5 days after a vigorous fermentation or 30 days in my ales, it does not matter, the FG is always the same. No more food. They are starved and trow into dormancy. I am however convinced that they carry on some very limited metabolic activity to sustain dormancy and prevent death like my articles showed, I'm just not sure how much of that has an influence in the quality of beer and Briggs book references to date have not specifically addressed that.
Ok. Not sure how much more staying power I have, but here goes another quote from Briggs:

"Beer, at completion of primary fermentation is said to be 'green'... In order to refine green beer it must be matured or conditioned... also called 'lagering' when referring to bottom fermented beers... Traditionally, maturation involves a secondary fementation and is effected by the small amount of yeast remaining in the beer when it is transferred from the fermenting vessel. This yeast can utilize fermentable carbohydrates remaining in the beer at the end of primary fermentation...Traditionally after primary fermentation the beer would pass into the conditioning or maturation vessel and would contain 1-4 million cells/mL of beer and about [1.1% fermentable extract]..."

I can not provide any more relevant information than this.

Your article is about the life cycle of yeast cells and possible long-term viability affects of dormancy. That does not seem to be what we are discussing.

Do you have anything I can read that disputes what I have just written? I think I have answered (in quoting two consecutive pages of one book) the questions you have raised.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:47 PM   #102
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Ok. Not sure how much more staying power I have, but here goes another quote from Briggs:

"Beer, at completion of primary fermentation is said to be 'green'... In order to refine green beer it must be matured or conditioned... also called 'lagering' when referring to bottom fermented beers... Traditionally, maturation involves a secondary fementation and is effected by the small amount of yeast remaining in the beer when it is transferred from the fermenting vessel. This yeast can utilize fermentable carbohydrates remaining in the beer at the end of primary fermentation...Traditionally after primary fermentation the beer would pass into the conditioning or maturation vessel and would contain 1-4 million cells/mL of beer and about [1.1% fermentable extract]..."

I can not provide any more relevant information than this.

Your article is about the life cycle of yeast cells and possible long-term viability affects of dormancy. That does not seem to be what we are discussing.

Do you have anything I can read that disputes what I have just written? I think I have answered (in quoting two consecutive pages of one book) the questions you have raised.
Give me the page number. I will see if I can find the scientific reference for his statement or perhaps another perception.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:49 PM   #103
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My reference:

Brewing Science and Practice (2004) by: Dennis E. Briggs, Chris A. Boulton, Peter A. Brookes, Roger Stevens

If you want to chase down their references, feel free. They are at the end of every chapter.

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Old 04-07-2011, 08:52 PM   #104
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My reference:

Brewing Science and Practice (2004) by: Dennis E. Briggs, Chris A. Boulton, Peter A. Brookes, Roger Stevens

If you want to chase down their references, feel free. They are at the end of every chapter.
No, you know better! I have the book in front of me! The book specifically mention the reference at the end of each paragraph for referenced information published somewhere else. Everything else are his opinions in the matter. Give me the page number!
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:54 PM   #105
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Give me the page number. I will see if I can find the scientific reference for his statement or perhaps another perception.
Wow. Have you ever trusted anything without experiencing it for yourself?

I tend to be pretty stubborn and I would much rather learn on my own than have facts spewed at me. But man, you take the cake.

In answer to your request... pages 543-544 and more info on the pages that follow.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:55 PM   #106
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No, you know better! I have the book in front of me! The book specifically mention the reference at the end of each paragraph for referenced information published somewhere else. Everything else are his opinions in the matter. Give me the page number!
I wrote that before I saw your response. Relax. I knew you'd ask for a reference. I just didn't know I had to give you the page number.

You are a piece of work.

I'm done.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:55 PM   #107
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No, you know better! I have the book in front of me! The book specifically mention the reference at the end of each paragraph for referenced information published somewhere else. Everything else are his opinions in the matter. Give me the page number!
Have you ever written a book chapter? I have... I had to review GABAergic neurotransmission in 5 pages with fewer than 20 references. Are you telling me that the vast majority of what I wrote (and didn't get to cite owing to limitations by the publisher) are simply my opinion? Not everything that is based in science will be cited in a book chapter.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:00 PM   #108
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First, he does not distinguish how much of that is influenced by fermentation vs. conditioning. It's a very general and broad assessment. If 99% is influenced during fermentation and merely 1% by conditioning, the statement is right and I'm right too!
Second. There is no reference to it, if there is please show me, hopefully the actual reference will do a better job. Until referenced by a reliable scientific study, it's just perceptions based on who knows what!?!
In order of apparent relevance:
(Barry and Watson 1987)
(Debourg et al. 1993)
(Jacobson and Bernofsky 1974)
(Mielgard 1975)
(Laurent et al 1995)

When you finish reading those, let me know and I'll pull up the rest. This tome is obsessively cited, which you would know if you checked it out yourself. The bibliography is at the end.

And of course, this kind of late processing is going to be more important in some batches than in others. I'm not sure what you are measuring when you say "99%", but if you don't know how significant an impact intermediate metabolites can have on a beer's flavor then I suspect you are rather new to this.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:03 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by ayoungrad

Wow. Have you ever trusted anything without experiencing it for yourself?

I tend to be pretty stubborn and I would much rather learn on my own than have facts spewed at me. But man, you take the cake.

In answer to your request... pages 543-544 and more info on the pages that follow.
Thanks, just like I suspected. No reference. There isn't a single reference in pages 543-544 as a matter of fact. The book is very organized literally the way it should be, every paragraph that is based on scientific information is referenced! Much discussion... Not much progress. We are still subject to opinions not based in scientific research, most likely due to experience.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:07 PM   #110
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No, you know better! I have the book in front of me! The book specifically mention the reference at the end of each paragraph for referenced information published somewhere else. Everything else are his opinions in the matter. Give me the page number!
What you should be asking for is what sources cite approvingly to Briggs. To the extent that Briggs is relied upon as an authoritative source of information, it is a bit disingenuous to say all non-referenced statements are merely "his opinions in the matter." That is how academic writing works - you state an "opinion" based on your experience and the study of other works. If that opinion is picked up and cited by others as support for their opinions enough times, you begin to accept that "opinion" as fact.
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