1st attempt at bottle harvesting - single bottle of Rogue Hazelnut Brown Nectar

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TimpanogosSlim

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Last saturday i treated myself to a bottle of Hazelnut Brown Nectar. $7 in Utah - just doing my part to fund public schools.

After i finished pouring it into my glass, i poured in some warm pre-boiled water, swished it around, and dumped it into a sanitized 500ml erlenmeyer flask. I topped it up to the 500ml mark with more warm pre-boiled water, and then just sort of poured in DME until the color looked right. Added a sanitized stir bar, and stuck a sanitized drilled stopper w/ sanitized airlock containing vodka in the mouth.

Put it on my super nifty solid state stir plate, adjusted until it was silent, and left it there until last night.

Fermentation was apparent within hours. By the next morning there was a cone of bubbles swirling and regular airlock activity.

Last night it appeared that fermentation was complete so i turned off the stir plate and put the flask in the fridge.

Just now i took it back out of the fridge, used a magnet to manipulate the stir bar to free up the sediment around the water line, then pulled off the airlock, used the magnet to draw out the stir bar, installed a sanitized stopper, dropped stir bar in bucket of sanitizer, then shook the flask until all of the sediment was in solution again (including the stuff that was stuck to the walls).

My dastardly plan is to make a 5.5g batch of hazelnut brown using yeast cultured from that one bottle. Tomorrow or sunday.

I looked around and could not find anyone saying whether they expected that the sediment in the RHBN bottle is Pacman or just a bottling yeast, so here's hoping it's pacman.

Using an all-grain recipe found here, brewtarget estimates the OG at 1.062.

Clearly I will need more yeast than is found in my little 500ml flask.

So, based on my vague interpretations of building yeast starters gleaned through the help of various google services, here's my plan:

Wait for yeast to precipitate back out of the solution in the 500ml flask, decant off the liquid.

Mix 800ml of 1.040 wort from boiling water and DME. 800ml is the maximum stir capacity of my little stir plate. Don't knock it - it's dead silent and it was a gift.

After carefully sanitizing the various involved surfaces with starsan, pour some of this mixture into the 500ml flask, swish to collect yeast sediment, and then add that and the rest of the wort to my 1000ml flask w/ vented screw-top closure.

Add sanitized stir bar, put on stir plate in warm place until brew day.

On brew day, turn off stir plate, add another 200ml of wort, close vent, shake up, reopen vent, leave in warm place until pitching time.

Does this sound sane? Am i destined for failure? My backup plan if i get a stuck ferment is to re-pitch with nottingham i already have on hand (my nearest LBS is 40 miles away - close to work but not to home).
 
Not that any y'all cared, but i am cautiously optimistic.

Thursday i cold crashed the 500ml flask.

Friday i decanted off the liquid - tasted exactly like weak flat unhopped beer.

Mixed up 800ml of 1.040 wort with light DME and boiling water in my 1000ml polycarbonate flask (w/ nifty venting system in the cap).

Capped the flask and stuck it in a pot of cold water to cool it off, a couple hours later i poured the remaining contents of the 500ml flask (about 100ml) into the bigger flask and stuck it on the stir plate.

This exceeds the max. quantity for my stir plate but it seemed to work ok anyhow.

Then yesterday morning i recalled that it probably wanted to be fed. Sprinkled a little yeast nutrient on it while it spun.

Last night at about 6 this all got pitched onto a 5.5g batch of Rogue Hazelnut Brown Nectar Clone (all grain) at 72f. Corrected hydrometer reading indicates i nailed the OG at 1.062 as predicted by brewtarget.

Put it into the coolest darkest corner of my basement. Installed blowoff tube. Stuck a ranging thermometer next to it because I'm curious what the temperature range in there is. Last night the ambient outside the carboy was 55f.

This morning there is clearly audible blowoff activity. Have i mentioned that PET soda bottles make great blowoff vessels because they amplify the sound?
 
:rockin:

Dude, it'll work well! I use cultured Bell's yeast to brew a lot, and I get great results. I usually use a few bottles of dregs to start, but if you stepped your starter up a few times, you'll have plenty of yeast.
My wife love's that Rogue Hazelnut Brown, and I was thinking of using some Pacman yeast I cultured from a bomber of Dead Guy to make her a small batch. :mug:
 
Good project, glad you were so successful!

Did I loose track of your step-ups or did you possibly under pitch?
 
I only stepped up once. I waited until the 500ml had fully fermented before stepping up to ~900ml.

The starter had the appearance of a (melted) peanut butter smoothie when i pitched it, with a lot of visible activity after taking it off of the stir plate.

It's possible that i under-pitched. I'm hoping to come home to find it motorboating a lot faster than it was this morning.

I'm unsure what signs i should look for to determine, early on, if i have certainly under-pitched.
 
At about 25 hours into fermentation, the blowoff activity seems faster than it was this morning and there appears to be a reasonable quantity of krausen forming in the bed of foam on top of the wort - but i didn't get a very good look because, well, it's DARK in there. Thermometer tells me 58f. Didn't check the thermometer range.

It's not motorboating as vigorously as my last brew, but that was with wyeast 3787 and was fermenting in the low 70's rather than the high 50's.

It seems to be roughly equivalent to brews i made with nottingham during the winter under similar thermal conditions.

Any advice on when to consider worrying? Right now I'm not worrying.
 
At about 25 hours into fermentation, the blowoff activity seems faster than it was this morning and there appears to be a reasonable quantity of krausen forming in the bed of foam on top of the wort - but i didn't get a very good look because, well, it's DARK in there. Thermometer tells me 58f. Didn't check the thermometer range.

It's not motorboating as vigorously as my last brew, but that was with wyeast 3787 and was fermenting in the low 70's rather than the high 50's.

It seems to be roughly equivalent to brews i made with nottingham during the winter under similar thermal conditions.

Any advice on when to consider worrying? Right now I'm not worrying.

Doesn't sound like you have anything to worry about. Except maybe Utah liquor laws...
 
Doesn't sound like you have anything to worry about. Except maybe Utah liquor laws...

Nah, I just can't sell it. Or serve it at a party where people give money for any reason.

I hear that Utah has one of the highest rates of breweries per capita in the nation. I attribute that to the fact that if you want it greater than 4.0ABV and cold at the same time, you have to make it yourself or buy it directly from the brewery.

The ABC stores pick & choose what they sell, and they have no refrigerators.

I've never seen many of the beers I see discussed here. I'll have to look for a 3 Floyds beer next time I'm at the ABC, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen that label in person. I've also not seen many of the Rogue varieties i see discussed here. I've seen Dead Guy and 1 or 2 others (and the hazelnut). How they must talk. When they're in church on Sunday, I'm in the back yard, brewing.

I've started giving my spent grain to my neighbor who keeps chickens. Have I mentioned that all of my neighbors are active mormons? And that i live about 50 yards from a chapel?
 
Here it is at about 48 hours:

2012-05-08_19-03-54_964.jpg
 
TimpanogosSlim said:
Fermentation slower tonight. One burp every 10 seconds or so. hmm.

If it is still at 58F you might want to think about warming it up towards 70F.
 
I haven't checked min/max on that thermometer but i presume that it's been pretty stable at 58-59f. Which should be ok for pacman.

Right now, increasing the temperature means moving it. Or doing something weird like hooking up a blow dryer to the pid control box i built for an electric smoker.

If patience is likely to be enough, i can be patient.
 
I haven't checked min/max on that thermometer but i presume that it's been pretty stable at 58-59f. Which should be ok for pacman.

Right now, increasing the temperature means moving it. Or doing something weird like hooking up a blow dryer to the pid control box i built for an electric smoker.

If patience is likely to be enough, i can be patient.

Yeah, especially if that is ambient.
 
Also I could have sworn I saw something on one of HBT's posts that indicated Pacman was a "well behaved" yeast that wouldn't really climb out of the fermenter. Which I would think might make it appear less active than other yeasts.
 
That's a good point.

This is my 2nd five gallon batch. Previously i have only done 1 gallon batches.

The previous 5 gallon batch was a belgian golden strong ale with 3787 and higher OG. it kept motorboating (and stinking up the house) for like a week.
 
Interesting, how many bottles did you use to harvest? I know they say 1 bottle per gallon for harvesting but the OP made it sound like he used a single.

I've used 1 before. It just takes a little longer and a few more step-ups.
 
I used one bottle. I stepped up once. I did not actually measure my initial wort, either.

It remains to be seen whether this will ultimately work out. I haven't actually looked at the fermenter in about 36 hours at this point. It may be time to switch out the blowoff for an airlock. I suppose i could take a hydrometer reading while I'm at it.
 
I don't know why i asked such a silly question since you answered it in the title, it was a late night. But that's cool knowing one bottle can be sufficient to make a batch. Can you elaborate on these "step ups" and the time it took to grow enough viable yeast?
 
I don't know why i asked such a silly question since you answered it in the title, it was a late night. But that's cool knowing one bottle can be sufficient to make a batch. Can you elaborate on these "step ups" and the time it took to grow enough viable yeast?

There are a bunch of threads on harvesting Bell's yeast. I harvested from a single bottle of pale ale. My steps were:

1) 25mL @ 1.020 until little tiny krausen formed, shaking as often as possible
2) 500mL @ 1.030 "
3) 1.6L @ 1.040 on stir plate

Took somewhere between 10-14 days. First step takes the longest. The mor bottles of dregs you use, the better.
 
Sounds good, i've been wanting to start harvesting my own yeast into vials. Might start with the wheats next weekend. I assume starting off with more then one bottle (such as ~5 or 6) i can start off with the 500ml 1.030 stage.
 
There are a bunch of threads on harvesting Bell's yeast. I harvested from a single bottle of pale ale. My steps were:

1) 25mL @ 1.020 until little tiny krausen formed, shaking as often as possible
2) 500mL @ 1.030 "
3) 1.6L @ 1.040 on stir plate

Took somewhere between 10-14 days. First step takes the longest. The mor bottles of dregs you use, the better.

I step up similar to Pablo, but I don't have a stir plate, so I do this:

1) 250ml @ 1.02 until no more activity.
2) add 250ml 1.04 wort (to achieve somewhere around 500 ml @ 1.025-30), ferment completely, cold crash and decant.
3) pitch slurry into 500ml @ 1.04, ferment completely, etc.
4) pitch slurry into 1 L @ 1.04, ferment, etc.
5) pitch slurry into brewing starter (according to MrMalty.com)

I usually try to use a few bottles of dregs, mainly because it'll get that first step going a bit faster, but one bottle of dregs will work fine. Either way, that first step is slow and inactive, it mainly wakes the yeast in the dregs up for the next step. :mug:
 
I probably could have stepped up to the 1L a day or so sooner than i did. And should have.

I liked the idea of "stealing" the yeast, but around here 1 22oz bottle of rogue costs as much as the smackpack of pacman.

I guess you can look at that from either angle. But it wouldn't have been as interesting to just buy the smackpack.

Almost all of my brewing to date has been with nottingham. My last batch was with 3787 and fermented at much warmer temperatures. Not sure what to expect from pacman.
 
around here 1 22oz bottle of rogue costs as much as the smackpack of pacman.

True, but the smack pack doesn't come with delicious Rogue beer inside. :D

Pacman's really clean, especially if you ferment cool. I think most people prefer to ferment cool, especially for beers like Dead Guy that's a maibock using ale yeast (it should be as clean as possible). The yeast is great for malty beers, it allows the malt flavor to really come through.
 
OK, hydrometer says I'm at 1.038 so nowhere near done, but there is little activity.

Smells like beer. Nothing that looks to me like an infection. Not that I've ever had an infected batch.

I installed an airlock filled with vodka.

The flexwatt tape and assorted hookups i ordered arrived today. And i had a smack-forehead moment when i realized that i can just hook it up to my PID control box.

So, i have the option of warming it tomorrow.

Thoughts?
 
alright, now it's got 2 feet of pid-controlled 11" flexwatt wrapped around it. and it's been liberally draped with an old sheet - maybe i should just put a hoodie on it.

In retrospect i shoulda bought more of the stuff - instead of getting 4 feet and cutting it in half i should have gone for 5 feet. but whatever.

gonna try and warm it towards 70f and see if it starts up again.
 
Less than 24 hours. It got a little jiggled yesterday. No additional gravity readings yet.

Once you warm it up, give it a good swirl without shaking it. Rouse the yeast up off the bottom real well and then give it a couple days and check the gravity. If no change, I would make a new starter and pitch it at high krausen.
 
Did as suggested. Maybe i didn't swirl it well enough, but there is no gravity movement - still about 1.038.

Tasted a bit of the hydrometer sample. Tastes like sweet, green, weak beer. So no infection is apparent. Probably just under pitched.

Since it didn't seem to be making a difference, I cut the power to the diy fermwrap.

... EDIT:

And then decided I'd been impatient, and a ***** about rousing the yeast. Gave it a better swirl and turned the heat back on. Will check again Wednesday night (last chance to buy yeast this week is thursday night -- I work within 10 minutes of 3 different LHBS but live a good hour from them).
 
Did as suggested. Maybe i didn't swirl it well enough, but there is no gravity movement - still about 1.038.

Tasted a bit of the hydrometer sample. Tastes like sweet, green, weak beer. So no infection is apparent. Probably just under pitched.

Since it didn't seem to be making a difference, I cut the power to the diy fermwrap.

... EDIT:

And then decided I'd been impatient, and a ***** about rousing the yeast. Gave it a better swirl and turned the heat back on. Will check again Wednesday night (last chance to buy yeast this week is thursday night -- I work within 10 minutes of 3 different LHBS but live a good hour from them).

Sounds like a reasonable plan to me.

What was your recipe and mash temp? Is it possible the yeast did their job and there are just a ton of unfermentables in there? Also, one thing that I did notice that could be a problem was your original culturing involved just guessing the OG of the starter wort. Potentially if you were off by a bit you could have stressed the yeast. If your recipe and mashing were fine, that would be my guess as to what happened.
 
Here's the recipe as exported from brewtarget. I built it from a clone recipe i found here, then adjusted slightly based on what is advertised on the bottle.

I did not pre-heat my mash tun. I dumped in the strike water at 175f, poured in grain, stirred, and threw on the lid. My notes say that the 1st and 2nd runnings both measured 154f.

I used basically the same batch sparge for the "Belgian Brother" i made some weeks back.

Hazelnut Brown Nectar - American Brown Ale
================================================================================
Batch Size: 5.478 gal
Boil Size: 6.789 gal
Boil Time: 90.000 min
Efficiency: 75%
OG: 1.062
FG: 1.012
ABV: 6.5%
Bitterness: 35.3 IBUs (Tinseth)
Color: 21 SRM (Morey)

Fermentables
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Pale Malt (2 Row) US Grain 8.500 lb Yes No 79%% 2 L
Munich Malt Grain 1.500 lb Yes No 80%% 9 L
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L Grain 1.200 lb Yes No 74%% 80 L
Brown Malt (British Chocolate) Grain 8.800 oz Yes No 70%% 65 L
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L Grain 5.600 oz Yes No 75%% 10 L
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 120L Grain 5.600 oz Yes No 72%% 120 L
Pale Chocolate Malt Grain 4.000 oz Yes No 71%% 215 L
Total grain: 12.700 lb

Hops
================================================================================
Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Perle 9.3%% 0.900 oz Boil 60.000 min Pellet 24.9
Sterling 7.6%% 0.600 oz Boil 30.000 min Pellet 10.4

Misc
================================================================================
Name Type Use Amount Time
Irish Moss Fining Boil 2.000 qt 15.000 min
Yeast Nutrient Other Primary 0.500 tsp 0.000 s



Mash
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Temp Target Time
First Batch Infusion 6.500 gal 175.000 F 150.000 F 60.000 min
Second Batch Infusion 2.000 gal 170.000 F 170.000 F 20.000 min
 
Reasonably confident, yes. It's a popular Polder model. I haven't stuck the probe in ice water, but I've only had it a few months and have not abused it.

I live at 4900 feet so i guess my boiling point is about 203f. I can check the thermometer tonight.


Does anybody know for sure whether the hazelnut brown is unfiltered and bottle conditioned w/ pacman rather than some other yeast?
 
Reasonably confident, yes. It's a popular Polder model. I haven't stuck the probe in ice water, but I've only had it a few months and have not abused it.

I live at 4900 feet so i guess my boiling point is about 203f. I can check the thermometer tonight.


Does anybody know for sure whether the hazelnut brown is unfiltered and bottle conditioned w/ pacman rather than some other yeast?

Maybe you could email them? I know a lot of the breweries seem to respond.
 
OK, gravity is down to 1.031, but this is starting to annoy me. Tomorrow I'll buy a smackpack of pacman so that i can get this finished right.

Also, the Rogue Nation has not responded to my epistle.
 
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