If a recipe calls for 2 weeks in primary, does it matter if I went 1 week primary and then 1 week secondary in order to free up my primary to brew my next batch? I have not taken gravity readings since fermentation started, but the airlock stopped bubbling about 4 or so days ago and now there is just a tiny bit of floating krausen atop the surface of my primary and a healthy looking 3" krausen caked around the sides of the primary bucket, so I'm pretty confident the vast majority of initial fermentation has completed. It's been 8 days since I brewed the beer. OG was right around 1.050, so not a big beer.
1 week primary + 1 week secondary = 2 weeks primary?
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LLBeanJ
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Take a gravity reading. If it's at the intended FG or within a couple of points from reaching FG, it's safe to transfer.
First of all, it's bad practice to base your racking schedule on a recipe, or instructions. The yeast will do what they do based on a number of variables. So throw the schedule out. Take measurements with a hydrometer.
You can rack to secondary at ANY time and free up your primary. However, the best bet is to wait until the initial fermentation is complete, then rack for conditioning and clarity. You can then pitch then next batch right on top of the yeast cake (However, best practices *might* indicate that soem yeast rinsing is better, depending on the style and gravity of the second beer. You CAN overpitch sometimes, and pitching on a cake causes plenty of dead cells to remain in the fermentation. You are likely fine for a second pitch, but after that I would consider rinsing the yeast.)
In your case, take a reading with a hydrometer and then another in 2-3 days and see if it's stable. If so, rack and repitch. Airlock activity is not a good indicator of fermentation AT ALL. It can only tell you if you have vigorous fermentation. it may not tell you anything at lower fermentation rates as the pressure drops, or temperature changes, and CO2 can come out of solution for several reasons, causing bubbles not related to fermentation activity at all.
8 days for a 1.050 beer could easily mean it's done. And again, it's not a big deal if fermentation is incomplete when you rack to secondary, you will merely add a bit more sediment to the secondary. The real problem is when people bottle too early from primary, not letting the beer clear and risking residual sugars causing bottle bombs.
Also, buckets are CHEAP compared to most of the rest of your equipment. While I see no problem racking in this case, buying a second fermentor would be an inexpensive way to get a second batch going while allowing the first batch to do it's thing on it's own schedule. You may even wish to do a double brewday or brew two days in a row!
You can rack to secondary at ANY time and free up your primary. However, the best bet is to wait until the initial fermentation is complete, then rack for conditioning and clarity. You can then pitch then next batch right on top of the yeast cake (However, best practices *might* indicate that soem yeast rinsing is better, depending on the style and gravity of the second beer. You CAN overpitch sometimes, and pitching on a cake causes plenty of dead cells to remain in the fermentation. You are likely fine for a second pitch, but after that I would consider rinsing the yeast.)
In your case, take a reading with a hydrometer and then another in 2-3 days and see if it's stable. If so, rack and repitch. Airlock activity is not a good indicator of fermentation AT ALL. It can only tell you if you have vigorous fermentation. it may not tell you anything at lower fermentation rates as the pressure drops, or temperature changes, and CO2 can come out of solution for several reasons, causing bubbles not related to fermentation activity at all.
8 days for a 1.050 beer could easily mean it's done. And again, it's not a big deal if fermentation is incomplete when you rack to secondary, you will merely add a bit more sediment to the secondary. The real problem is when people bottle too early from primary, not letting the beer clear and risking residual sugars causing bottle bombs.
Also, buckets are CHEAP compared to most of the rest of your equipment. While I see no problem racking in this case, buying a second fermentor would be an inexpensive way to get a second batch going while allowing the first batch to do it's thing on it's own schedule. You may even wish to do a double brewday or brew two days in a row!
Yeah, I have toyed with getting a 2nd primary bucket - that would easily allow me to brew twice within a 10-day window, though that hardly ever arises. I'm about a monthly or twice a month brew guy - just had the "brew bug" the last few weeks I suppose 
This is probably a big time "newb" question (though this is batch no. 10) when you say I could "pitch the next batch right on top of the yeast cake" what does that mean? Are you saying after I siphon out batch one into the secondary, I could then brew batch no. 2 and just pour that aerated wort into the primary bucket with all the nasty stuff still at the bottom and along the sides? I have seen lots of post about "yeast washing" and "yeast rinsing" but I've never done anything like that or read much about it (as you can tell). I just always rehydrate dried yeast that comes with my kit and add it to my aerated wort. If I do what you suggest, wouldn't I need both batches to use the same yeast? And batches A and B had different yeasts. I'm probably totally misunderstanding what you're saying and I apologize if that's the case.
This is probably a big time "newb" question (though this is batch no. 10) when you say I could "pitch the next batch right on top of the yeast cake" what does that mean? Are you saying after I siphon out batch one into the secondary, I could then brew batch no. 2 and just pour that aerated wort into the primary bucket with all the nasty stuff still at the bottom and along the sides? I have seen lots of post about "yeast washing" and "yeast rinsing" but I've never done anything like that or read much about it (as you can tell). I just always rehydrate dried yeast that comes with my kit and add it to my aerated wort. If I do what you suggest, wouldn't I need both batches to use the same yeast? And batches A and B had different yeasts. I'm probably totally misunderstanding what you're saying and I apologize if that's the case.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's what Homer was talking about.
Basically, you transfer your beer out and transfer fresh wort right back in the same bucket without cleaning it. And yes, this only works if you want to use the same yeast strain. The problem with this is that it's seriously overpitching, like 4x or 5x in most cases. There is mixed opinion as to whether this is a good idea or not. I've done it myself a couple of times when I was a young brewer and the beer turned out fine and others on the forum have reported similar results. But, there's also a contingent who will argue that you should never do it. My philosophy these days is to pitch what's needed and no more. In reality, most 1.050-1.060 beers only need about 4 oz (1/2 cup) of slurry for a proper pitch. I frequently schedule a couple brews in a row that use the same yeast so that I only need to make a starter for the first brew and then re-pitch slurry from the first to ferment the second brew. It works pretty well.
Yeast rinsing is what people here are actually referring to when they use the term "yeast washing." "Washing" requires the use of acid and few homebrewers will take it to that degree. Rinsing does a great job of separating healthy yeast from the dead yeast and other trub, but it's not worth the effort in my book. It's far better and easier to make a larger than needed starter and save some of it for another starter later. Yeast saved in this manner (as well as rinsed yeast) will keep for several months if kept refrigerated.
Basically, you transfer your beer out and transfer fresh wort right back in the same bucket without cleaning it. And yes, this only works if you want to use the same yeast strain. The problem with this is that it's seriously overpitching, like 4x or 5x in most cases. There is mixed opinion as to whether this is a good idea or not. I've done it myself a couple of times when I was a young brewer and the beer turned out fine and others on the forum have reported similar results. But, there's also a contingent who will argue that you should never do it. My philosophy these days is to pitch what's needed and no more. In reality, most 1.050-1.060 beers only need about 4 oz (1/2 cup) of slurry for a proper pitch. I frequently schedule a couple brews in a row that use the same yeast so that I only need to make a starter for the first brew and then re-pitch slurry from the first to ferment the second brew. It works pretty well.
Yeast rinsing is what people here are actually referring to when they use the term "yeast washing." "Washing" requires the use of acid and few homebrewers will take it to that degree. Rinsing does a great job of separating healthy yeast from the dead yeast and other trub, but it's not worth the effort in my book. It's far better and easier to make a larger than needed starter and save some of it for another starter later. Yeast saved in this manner (as well as rinsed yeast) will keep for several months if kept refrigerated.
Yep, you can pitch right back into the bucket with the yeast sitting in there. I would probably recommend grabbing a bit of yeast out, washing and sanitizing the fermentor, then adding the amount of yeast (and other junk) you want back in.
The "other stuff" is probably fine for a second use. This isn't what I would call best practice, but it will work and probably not a big deal for just a second batch. It's mostly useful for when you want to brew a VERY large beer, like a barleywine or RIS or something. A lot of people brew a lighter beer and then pitch the big beer on the cake.
Again, it's not a big deal to rinse your yeast, which gets rid of most of the unwanted junk while keeping most of the useful yeast. Research Yeast Washing, because that's what most homebrewers call yeast rinsing.
This reminds me I have two quart jars of yeast in my fridge that are a couple of years old. I should brew up a cheap batch and see what happens. I think one of them is a lager yeast...
The "other stuff" is probably fine for a second use. This isn't what I would call best practice, but it will work and probably not a big deal for just a second batch. It's mostly useful for when you want to brew a VERY large beer, like a barleywine or RIS or something. A lot of people brew a lighter beer and then pitch the big beer on the cake.
Again, it's not a big deal to rinse your yeast, which gets rid of most of the unwanted junk while keeping most of the useful yeast. Research Yeast Washing, because that's what most homebrewers call yeast rinsing.
This reminds me I have two quart jars of yeast in my fridge that are a couple of years old. I should brew up a cheap batch and see what happens. I think one of them is a lager yeast...
I don't make starters. I don't do liquid yeast and I've been read/told that it's not good to do starters for dried yeast.
Now, are you telling me that if I was to brew batch A which had yeast strain X and then brew batch B which also was to use yeast strain X, I could simply dump the cooled wort from batch B into my primary bucket and if I do this, to avoid overpitching, I should just scoop out like 3/4 of the crud in the bottom of the bucket and pour the wort from batch B on top of the remaining crud? And then refrigerate the other 3/4 of crud and save for future batches the use yeast strain X? Thanks for the help! If this is true, then I guess I'd only have to buy yeast like 1 out of every 4 kits then huh?
Now, are you telling me that if I was to brew batch A which had yeast strain X and then brew batch B which also was to use yeast strain X, I could simply dump the cooled wort from batch B into my primary bucket and if I do this, to avoid overpitching, I should just scoop out like 3/4 of the crud in the bottom of the bucket and pour the wort from batch B on top of the remaining crud? And then refrigerate the other 3/4 of crud and save for future batches the use yeast strain X? Thanks for the help! If this is true, then I guess I'd only have to buy yeast like 1 out of every 4 kits then huh?
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
I don't use dry yeast, so my experience with dry is zero, but it's fine to make starters from dry. The reason it's rarely done is because there's rarely a need. With something like 220B cells (or whatever it is) in a packet, that's usually enough for most brews and if it's not you can pitch multiple packets. But, if one wanted to use one packet, rehydrate it, and then do a starter, that's perfectly fine.
So, you'd have to add the mason jar content to a starter - you can't just pour the mason jar's content directly into wort, right?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/
People do all kinds of different things, and the argument over dry vs liquid is no exception. I use both, and IN MY OPINION you should build a starter, or pitch multiple packages, of LIQUID YEAST, depending on the gravity of the beer. Aeration is also recommended.
For DRY YEAST I recommend rehydrating, but aeration is not needed, and a starter is fine, but for the price, usually not worth the effort compared to buying a second packet, plus you have to then aerate as the yeast have used up the sterol reserves they built up during the drying process.
Note that this is just what I've read from the book YEAST and from the yeast manufacturers' own websites. My actual experience is that as long as the temperature is good for the yeast, and you give it food to eat, it will all work. I like to use best practices, even if I don't personally notice a difference on every batch.
As far as yeast rinsing and repitching, then yes, you could do it as you outline. Find out the optimum pitching rate and save that in the bucket. Scoop the remainder and rinse it. I've actually mostly gotten away from rinsing. I have no interest in brewing as a living and my time is precious, so after playing around with rinsing yeast I have had my fill. If I had a "Special" yeast and knew I were brewing more batches in a few weeks I'd consider doing it again, but for now I simply buy extra packets of dry, or build a liquid starter if my gravity is above about 1.060 or so. For most Pale Ales I find dry yeast works well and is really easy to keep and use. I rehydrate using sterilized water I've canned previously.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
Yes. From the link you posted, the purpose of canned wort is to have pre-made wort ready to go when the time comes to make a starter. You spend a few hours canning a bunch of wort to have on hand and that allows you to throw a starter together in 5 minutes (or less) when you need one, instead of boiling and cooling wort every time you need to make a starter, which can take 20-30 minutes.
Now I'm more confused. Don't you add the room temp harvested yeast (from the mason jar) to the starter in place of the yeast vial or smack pack? Isn't the harvested yeast ("free" from the previous batch) taking the place of WYeast Smack Pack or White Labs yeast vial? Assuming that's the case, don't I still need to heat up and cool the flask with the DME in it? Lastly, do you suggest washing yeast from dried yeast? My next three kits have already been purchased and I always buy dried yeast so I wouldn't be harvesting for a long time, but do like the idea of having "free" yeast (at least after I buy the stuff to make starters as I've never done one before).
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Jumping in uninvited here, but I agree with Homercidal. As a noob (<20 batches) who also only brews ~1/month due to time constraints, it's not worth taking more time to save the piddly $$ that buying yeast ~1/month costs. And I have simply "re-used a yeast cake" in the most grossly simple way--rack off finished beer from bucket, set lid back on until next boiled/cooled wort is ready and dump it right on. It was fine, maybe not great, but fine.
If you save off slurry, as I've read many do, they just dump it into the bucket when wort is ready; others make starters if slurry has been saved in fridge for a while (up to a few months even).
But IMHO it's not worth my time. I spend the $5-8 each time I make a batch. Also, I doubt I'd be allowed to keep the 5-10 different strains of slurry I'd want, for any length of time, in SWMBO's fridge.
If you save off slurry, as I've read many do, they just dump it into the bucket when wort is ready; others make starters if slurry has been saved in fridge for a while (up to a few months even).
But IMHO it's not worth my time. I spend the $5-8 each time I make a batch. Also, I doubt I'd be allowed to keep the 5-10 different strains of slurry I'd want, for any length of time, in SWMBO's fridge.
I've read more about this since my last post and what you write makes sense. I guess though if I can snag three or so batches worth of yeast from a previous fermentation, there's no harm. Sounds like pretty much everyone speaks well of starters, even though they might not be necessary in all cases. I guess if nothing else, it's about learning more about brewing and expanding my knowledge while saving enough to buy a "free" extract kit. Next step is to find several kits that all like the same yeast strain. Lastly, is there anything wrong with harvesting from dried yeast or should I wait until I do a batch with liquid?
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Once it's at the end of the fermentation and your beer is done and being racked off (bottle, secondary, whatever) it's all the same. Grab some slurry and put it in the fridge to use in a batch in the next few days/weeks.
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
Yep, my mistake. You linked to the yeast washing sticky and I clicked on it, but when I saw mason jars in a pot, my mind was thinking this was the sticky for canning starter wort. Feel free to disregard everything I said in the post that confused you, since it's not relevant to what we're talking about in this post. Sorry about that.
Now for a proper answer, which may have already been provided by others above this post...
If you are planning on direct pitching yeast from one batch to another, as in you have beer in primary that you are ready to rack off and you have fresh wort ready to go that still needs yeast, you can rack off the finished beer to secondary, bottling bucket, keg, wherever and leave the yeast cake behind. Then, dip into that yeast cake and pull out some slurry. You can put it directly into your next batch of wort or you can save it in a sanitized container to pitch later. Generally, it will keep for a couple of weeks in the fridge before you need to think about making a starter.
If I pour batch B's wort into batch A's yeast cake in the just recently racked fermenter, would I leave ALL the yeast / trub at the bottom of the primary when I pour in batch B's wort or do I scoop out like 1/2 of it (save it) and pour the wort over the remaining yeast cake?
LLBeanJ
Well-Known Member
If it were me, I'd use a sanitized measuring cup to pull out about 3/4 of the yeast cake and either save it in sanitized mason jars or trash it and leave the remaining 1/4 to ferment the new wort. There are plenty of people here who will say, yeah, just use the whole cake and don't worry about the fact that it's a pretty substantial overpitch and to their credit, it seems to work. I think you get better beer by pitching the proper amount, though, but that's me.
I agree that using the whole yeast cake is overpitching for most beers (maybe not a really big beer). The better plan is to just use what you need, half or even a bit less is much more yeast than a vial or smack pack.
Rinsing is also a decent idea, just a bit more work. You don't *have* to sterilize jars. You can sanitize, rinse, and refrigerate as long as you use the yeast in a few weeks.
Rinsing is also a decent idea, just a bit more work. You don't *have* to sterilize jars. You can sanitize, rinse, and refrigerate as long as you use the yeast in a few weeks.
