What is wrong with my Belgians?

So I hesitate, now, to call myself a newbie. I'm no veteran, but I've brewed around 10 batches or so - so I have a fairly good idea of what I am doing.

So far I've only had a few speed bumps. One carbonating issue with a stout that was fixed with temperature and time, and two with Belgians which I haven't been able to figure out.

Right now I am taking my second pass at a Belgian abbey style dubbel. The first time I made it, it came out tasting like sugar with a hint of skunk. The aftertaste was a lot like fruit loops. Basically, it was awful. I made a blonde as well, and the beer tasted exactly like the dubbel. I just took the cap off my second dubbel (it's been in primary for almost 3 weeks) and it smells just like the other ones.

I used different yeast, different sugar, even a new grain bill. I added the sugar a day after the fermentation started. The fermentation has been very active all the way through. I've kept it in the dark, and I've let it hover just a touch under 70 degrees.

While all of my other beers have been delicious, I can't figure out why the Belgians refuse to taste like the great trappiste beer I buy at the liquor store. I understand it's not going to be perfect, but its not even close. Any suggestions? Similar stories?

Mongoose40 said:

I can't figure out why the Belgians refuse to taste like the great trappiste beer I buy at the liquor store.

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They do have a few hundred years of experience on you.

Have you read "Brew Like a Monk"? Highly recommended.

IIRC, most Belgian are fermented well above 70 to pump out all the phenolic love.

While the specs of the yeast may have a bottom end of 70, taht temp may not be ideal for what you want. Have you read Brew Like a Monk?

What yeast strain are you using? What is your grain bill?

I have not read "brew like a monk". I have had that recommended to me by more than one person though, so I think I'll be looking into it.

I used a white labs belgian ale yeast the first time around, this time I used a different one. I can't remember the number but I guess it was cultured by Unibroue.

I don't have the grain bill in front of me, but from what I remember:

Belgian 2 row pils
Special B
Biscuit
Cara-Munich
A touch of Chocolate malt
Maybe some Aromatic?

I just tried my Chimay Red clone that I brewed a couple of months ago.

I used a Belgian Abbey yeast and then pitched a Montrechand wine yeast at bottling.

This beer tasted horrible when I first tried it, but as it's aged, it has settled down quite nicely. I took it to a craw fish boil thinking that a good cold Belgian Ale would pair nicely with the mud bugs.

I was right.

Everyone at the boil was very complimentary. Some complained about the low carbonation and I just explained that Belgian Ales are like that.

So, maybe with a little time and love you'll get a better beer. I never had this one below 72 deg. during fermentation and my air lock stopped bubbling at 4-5 days.

I hope some of this info helps you.

My last Belgian was pretty tasty -- can't say my first one was though. Let it ferment in the mid 70°'s, and definitely use a starter even if it's a low gravity brew.

Aging is also critical, even for low ABV brews. Something about the yeast esters pretty much requires a two month+ rest to the yeast can blend with the alcohol. My saison tasted like hot alcohol two weeks into bottles and I thought it was done. Two months later it was very drinkable, and at three it was a classic, tasty Belgian.

cherrob123 said:

Some complained about the low carbonation and I just explained that Belgian Ales are like that.

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Since when are Belgian Ales known for low carbonation?

Most are carbonated well above 3 volumes.

Assuming I haven't fermented at adequate temperatures, it it salvageable if I forget about it in the bottles for a couple months then? Maybe leave the bottles in a warmer place? I was planning on bottling tomorrow.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Since when are Belgian Ales known for low carbonation?

Most are carbonated well above 3 volumes.

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yea I always believed they were like champagne level volumes of CO2

Mongoose40 said:

Assuming I haven't fermented at adequate temperatures, it it salvageable if I forget about it in the bottles for a couple months then? Maybe leave the bottles in a warmer place? I was planning on bottling tomorrow.

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Bottle it and put it away at room temp for two months before tasting. The lower temps should result in lower esters and fruitiness but it'll still be a Belgian beer at the end.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Since when are Belgian Ales known for low carbonation?

Most are carbonated well above 3 volumes.

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The Chimay's I have always had are not carbonated at 3 volumes.

My friends were looking for something carbonated at the same volume as the bud light or coors light they always drink.

I also had a nice winter ale left over from winter and took that. The guys that just couldn't stand the low carbonation drank the winter ale and liked it better.

rhamilton said:

yea I always believed they were like champagne level volumes of CO2

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I am not saying they can't be served at lower volumes, I personally don't carbonate anything more than 2.5 volumes. I just don't care for fizzy. But, I certainly wouldn't enter any of my Belgians into competitions with such a low level of carbonation.

I think the lowest I have seen is 2.75. Most are around 3.0 to 3.5, and some are upwards to 4.

Just checked my carb chart -- seems like Belgians are indeed supposed to be 1.9-2.5 volumes (low to medium) but BJCP guidelines say medium to high -- now I'm really confused

I'll have to pay more attention next time I have some commercial varieties to see what they do.

cherrob123 said:

The Chimay's I have always had are not carbonated at 3 volumes.

My friends were looking for something carbonated at the same volume as the bud light or coors light they always drink.

I also had a nice winter ale left over from winter and took that. The guys that just couldn't stand the low carbonation drank the winter ale and liked it better.

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Of the Red (premier), White (Cinq Cents), and Blue (Grande Reserve), I may concede that the Blue (Grand Reserve) may be the lowest carbonated of the three but, I believe the lower attenuation and inherent heaviness of that beer is subdueing the feel of the carbonation more than anything.

If you've had low carbonated Reds and Whites, I'd be suspect. Those things are high carbonation. Are you mostly buying the larger corked bottles?

rhamilton said:

Just checked my carb chart -- seems like Belgians are indeed supposed to be 1.9-2.5 volumes (low to medium) but BJCP guidelines say medium to high -- now I'm really confused

I'll have to pay more attention next time I have some commercial varieties to see what they do.

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I am pretty fond of Belgian style beers, especially Trappist/Monastic. I cannot think of any single one that was carbonated to such low levels by default.

Based on what is in the bottles I'd sooner believe BJCP than that chart. Unless that chart has the beer carbonating in Nitrogen.

Most belgians trick me into thinking they're a over oxidized lager..lol.. When I get past that I do enjoy them.. trappist and abbey's are a different story.. I love them and have to be careful not to set my glass down where the kids can reach it

Mongoose40 said:

I don't have the grain bill in front of me, but from what I remember:

Belgian 2 row pils
Special B
Biscuit
Cara-Munich
A touch of Chocolate malt
Maybe some Aromatic?

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No sugar!

Mongoose40 said:

Assuming I haven't fermented at adequate temperatures, it it salvageable if I forget about it in the bottles for a couple months then? Maybe leave the bottles in a warmer place? I was planning on bottling tomorrow.

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How long has it been since it started?

You might want to push the temp up to about 80 for a couple of days to finish it off. You really need to get them dried out. Chimay double finishes somewhere around 1.008.

GilaMinumBeer said:

I am pretty fond of Belgian style beers, especially Trappist/Monastic. I cannot think of any single one that was carbonated to such low levels by default.

Based on what is in the bottles I'd sooner believe BJCP than that chart. Unless that chart has the beer carbonating in Nitrogen.

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Westvleteren is quite low on carbonation. But having that said: most Belgian beers are pretty good on carbonation. It's usually the "Geuze" or "Lambik"-styles that are low on carb and the rest is somewhere in the middle of the average scale I think

Mongoose40 said:

I have not read "brew like a monk". I have had that recommended to me by more than one person though, so I think I'll be looking into it.

I used a white labs belgian ale yeast the first time around, this time I used a different one. I can't remember the number but I guess it was cultured by Unibroue.

I don't have the grain bill in front of me, but from what I remember:

Belgian 2 row pils
Special B
Biscuit
Cara-Munich
A touch of Chocolate malt
Maybe some Aromatic?

Click to expand...

You have the wrong kind of yeast!

The White Labs Belgian Ale (which you used before) is for totally different beer styles. I'm not sure about your other one(it's vague), but try Fermentis Safbrew T-58(trappist) yeast. Otherwise the Wyeast Trappist High Gravity 3787(trappist).

However, the best result you will get from growing/propagating some yeast from a Chimay bottle. They have their own yeast as far as I know and the best way to achieve a clone-like beer is using their yeast

As far as carbonation comes, that's mostly due to bottling conditions. Usually, store them quite warm for a week, two weeks. Then store them colder so the fluid can absorb the CO2

The whitelabs yeast you were talking about:

WLP550 Belgian Ale Yeast
Saisons, Belgian Ales, Belgian Reds, Belgian Browns, and White beers are just a few of the classic Belgian beer styles that can be created with this yeast strain. Phenolic and spicy flavors dominate the profile, with less fruitiness then WLP500.

That is off by MILES. Of you have chosen a similar yeast from another brand, you're still miles off

Nembrionic said:

Westvleteren is quite low on carbonation. But having that said: most Belgian beers are pretty good on carbonation. It's usually the "Geuze" or "Lambik"-styles that are low on carb and the rest is somewhere in the middle of the average scale I think

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What gueuzes have you had that were lightly carbonated?

MattCinatl said:

What gueuzes have you had that were lightly carbonated?

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Oude geuzes, old geuzes. The "regular" geuzes are still quite carbonated, you are right

I'm with the op. I have brewed 50+ batches and I haven't made a Belgian that I liked. I make decent beers from what I've been told. But I really don't like my Belgians. I believed it has been my yeast. Now I see the need to have more patience with them. I was going to give it one more try with a bottle harvest from Ommegang Abbey Ale. Thanks for the input.
Cheers

hopcop said:

I'm with the op. I have brewed 50+ batches and I haven't made a Belgian that I liked. I make decent beers from what I've been told. But I really don't like my Belgians. I believed it has been my yeast. Now I see the need to have more patience with them. I was going to give it one more try with a bottle harvest from Ommegang Abbey Ale. Thanks for the input.
Cheers

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Belgians are a little different. They do require patience but also are more sensitive to the recipe. One thing that is often overlooked is the BU: GU ratio. With most brews if you are a little off it is no big deal. With Belgians it is very noticeable if the ratio is off.

http://www.madalchemist.com/chart_data.html

This should help. Most get the ratio too high. I did when I first started making Belgians. Once I understood the ratio, the brews got MUCH better.

Update after bottling.

Just bottled the batch that I had mentioned in the original post. I tasted a little bit, and it actually tasted much better than I anticipated. I caught a slight hint of the last ones I was complaining about when I was smelling it, but it didn't taste much like those at all. I think what a lot of people have touched on is true. Patience is so so so important with Belgians - so for that reason I'm going to try to forget I made this batch for at least a month or so before I try one. Hopefully I finally did it right (although I realize I could have fermented slightly warmer).

My recommendations for making a decent Belgian:

1) Keep it simple. No spices (some can be OK, but be very light, best to start with none at all and let the yeast provide the flavors).
2) No crystal or other dominant grains. A little aromatic is OK.
3) Mash very low (about 148 F). Want it to end up low.
4) Hops: Noble or British, and keep low.
5) Table sugar. At least 10%, but 20% is Ok. If using extract, go on the high side to help the beer finish low.
6) Any Belgian yeast. But be aware that there is a huge difference between them, and you may need to try several different ones to get one you like.
7) Ferment high. Some folks start in the 60s and raise the temperature over a few days to the mid 70s. I like to start at 74 F, and raise to 80+ as fermentation slows. The Dupont strain likes to be over 80 all the time.
8) Control fermentation temp. Use a water bath and a fish tank heater to hold the temperature steady.
9) Let condition for a while after fermentation is over.

I'd add not to get too frustrated if after a month of conditioning it isn't perfect. Homebrewing to purposely generate esters and phenols can easily produce too many because of the uncertainty involved, so these often take longer to calm down than you'd think. I made a 7% dubbel that was nowhere near done until after three months in the bottle, just because my system has too many variables. Also, fermentation temps vary widely from yeast to yeast. Chimay pitches around 68 and raises temps over 80. Dupont get up around 90. But Russian River's Damnation only goes up to 68, according to Brew Like A Monk, and he's using White Labs 500.

Nembrionic said:

You have the wrong kind of yeast!

The White Labs Belgian Ale (which you used before) is for totally different beer styles. I'm not sure about your other one(it's vague), but try Fermentis Safbrew T-58(trappist) yeast. Otherwise the Wyeast Trappist High Gravity 3787(trappist).

However, the best result you will get from growing/propagating some yeast from a Chimay bottle. They have their own yeast as far as I know and the best way to achieve a clone-like beer is using their yeast

As far as carbonation comes, that's mostly due to bottling conditions. Usually, store them quite warm for a week, two weeks. Then store them colder so the fluid can absorb the CO2

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I don't understand why that's the wrong kind of yeast? 550 can be used to make dubbels.

EDIT: Nevermind I did not read the dates...

Mongoose40 said:

I added the sugar a day after the fermentation started.

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I've read about doing this but haven't ever done it. I'd just add all your sugar in the boil and see if that helps.
I'm by no means an expert on Belgians, I've only brewed 3 Saisons and a golden, but they've all came out beautifull. I did leave them all in primary for about three weeks and in secondary for another two. My temps were in the low to mid 70's.

Andrewtherooster said:

I don't understand why that's the wrong kind of yeast? 550 can be used to make dubbels.

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That yeast is fine, makes an excellent Dubbel. I brewed one earlier this year, had a couple this past weekend ....... excellent, and just getting better with time.