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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Beer Discussion > Vienna Lager - Rack To Yeast Cake - Yes/No?

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Old 04-10-2014, 01:45 PM   #11
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Or you can tell them to do a rain dance and throw salt over their shoulder before every brew, rather than assess risks as they actually are. Where did I sign up for a pissing contest?
When you seemed to think that common practice somehow is equal to "good practise" or "best practise" and decided to take someone on who recommends doing it right...maybe?

As said, keep doing your thing, I'll keep doing mine.
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Old 04-10-2014, 02:01 PM   #12
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Guys, you don't want to rack a 3 gallon batch of vienna lager into a dirty 6 gallon carboy that had Marzenlager in it.. Sanitary concerns aside, you will definitely pick up flavors from doing that and not necessarily ones that you want. Will you make bad beer? Likely not. But homebrewing is about making the best beer possible, and I don't think it's worth the time savings (5 minutes) to dump into a cruddy fermenter. Another issue to think about is the amount of headspace you'll have with that small of a batch.

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Old 04-10-2014, 02:20 PM   #13
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When you seemed to think that common practice somehow is equal to "good practise" or "best practise" and decided to take someone on who recommends doing it right...maybe?

As said, keep doing your thing, I'll keep doing mine.
My response to this was (perhaps justifiably) deleted, but don't talk trash (not the word I used last time) about "taking people on" in a thread about beer, I don't know you or care to "take you on" in any possible sense of the phrase. Presumably you're at least 21, so it's unbecoming. It's not about you, I don't know you, so chat nice about beer and keep the snotty macho stuff out.

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Guys, you don't want to rack a 3 gallon batch of vienna lager into a dirty 6 gallon carboy that had Marzenlager in it.. Sanitary concerns aside, you will definitely pick up flavors from doing that and not necessarily ones that you want. Will you make bad beer? Likely not. But homebrewing is about making the best beer possible, and I don't think it's worth the time savings (5 minutes) to dump into a cruddy fermenter. Another issue to think about is the amount of headspace you'll have with that small of a batch.
I don't think there's a strong reason to avoid repitching yeast from a marzen into a vienna lager, if that's what you're saying. He didn't say it's a carboy, but a 5-gallon batch can certainly be brewed in a 6.5 carboy, or a similar bucket. I don't see where there's a headspace concern. You don't leave a bunch of beer in the bottom of the fermenter when you do this, you rack as usual and then pour off the excess.

Some people buy new yeast for every batch. Professionals don't, and people who care at all about costs don't. You can do lots of unnecessary things to "make your beer perfect" that don't actually make the beer better, they just make you feel better about how you're doing it. That's fine too. People have been making beer a long time, and I guarantee you they did not always scrub their fermenter down in between two batches.
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Old 04-10-2014, 02:29 PM   #14
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I don't think there's a strong reason to avoid repitching yeast from a marzen into a vienna lager, if that's what you're saying.
It isn't.
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He didn't say it's a carboy, but a 5-gallon batch can certainly be brewed in a 6.5 carboy, or a similar bucket.
It's not a 5 gallon batch, read his post again.
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Some people buy new yeast for every batch. Professionals don't, and people who care at all about costs don't. You can do lots of unnecessary things to "make your beer perfect" that don't actually make the beer better, they just make you feel better about how you're doing it. That's fine too. People have been making beer a long time, and I guarantee you they did not always scrub their fermenter down in between two batches.
Right, but professionals use conical fermenters, which by design allow you to pull very clean yeast off of them. Also, they are brewing a crapload of one kind of beer, which allows them to keep using the same yeast on the same beer. As far as the beer of ye olden day, I'm guessing that a lot of it sucked by todays standards, and had to be drunk within a short time frame before it soured so I don't think it's really relevent to compare their brewing practices to ours.
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Old 04-10-2014, 02:42 PM   #15
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OK, his post actually says the vienna is 3 gal and the marzen was 5 gal, so I had that backwards. Which means:

A) that's overpitch, don't do that without ditching more than half the cake. MrMalty will help you estimate (which is really as much as it can do).
B) you're saying he has too much headspace, which is a bulk aging concern, not ever a primary fermentation concern.

There is no substantial sanitary difference between pulling a cake from a conical and pitching a cake. People have ideas about what part is "trub" and what part is "yeast" but there's a significant amount of both in either. As long as you are not looking at a lot of hop and grain material, you are not looking at "dirty" anything, except the rim of the fermenter, which again is a negligible concern with yeast in active fermentation.

As for flavor, that's obviously a matter open to interpretation, but I would be absolutely floored if someone could tell the difference between a Vienna brewed on yeast from a Marzen and a Vienna brewed on a yeast from a Vienna in a double-blind. Totally blown away. The volume of yeast at work is minimal and does not contain much flavor (other than the flavor of yeast).

Last, ye olde beers were not drunk quickly before souring because of the kind of container they fermented in, but because they were often casked and there was no CO2 to flush the headspace once it was open. Even some modern breweries use completely open fermenters. Oxidation is not a risk in primary.

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Old 04-10-2014, 02:55 PM   #16
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As for flavor, that's obviously a matter open to interpretation, but I would be absolutely floored if someone could tell the difference between a Vienna brewed on yeast from a Marzen and a Vienna brewed on a yeast from a Vienna in a double-blind. Totally blown away. The volume of yeast at work is minimal and does not contain much flavor (other than the flavor of yeast).
I wasn't referring to the use of the yeast imparting marzen-like flavors but rather the protein, hop material, and residual beer left over in the trub that would definitely be present if he just racked one out and the other in. I would be surprised if someone wouldn't pick that up.
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Last, ye olde beers were not drunk quickly before souring because of the kind of container they fermented in, but because they were often casked and there was no CO2 to flush the headspace once it was open. Even some modern breweries use completely open fermenters. Oxidation is not a risk in primary.
Fair enough point
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Old 04-10-2014, 09:37 PM   #17
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Interesting thread that I spawned here First chance I've had to climb back in.....I was not planning on adding the Vienna into the same fermenter as the Marzen.......would just collect the slurry from the primary and transfer into a smaller vessel for my Vienna. My concern was not having enough viable yeast but the commentary suggests that I may have too much.......I'll check out mrmalty and see what numbers it suggests. Thanks.

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Old 04-11-2014, 02:25 PM   #18
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Interesting thread that I spawned here First chance I've had to climb back in.....I was not planning on adding the Vienna into the same fermenter as the Marzen.......would just collect the slurry from the primary and transfer into a smaller vessel for my Vienna. My concern was not having enough viable yeast but the commentary suggests that I may have too much.......I'll check out mrmalty and see what numbers it suggests. Thanks.

Good man, dirty fermenters are for washing, not for putting subtle lagers in to pick up gunk and crap from older beers that were in there previously. If it was a stout......maybe, if you were really lazy.
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